2 problems with a 649, need help!

[doak07]

I've got a used older 649 that i know was manufactured in 1988 (thanks for info forum member 824tsv) with two problems that I am not sure if are related to each other or not. Last night i took this gun apart into many tiny pieces with the help of a DVD in order to clean it and learn more about how it works. I did this specific gun because i don't use it much ( i have another 649 I like more) and in case I messed something up it would be more "acceptable" than to one of my favorite guns. Now I made the mistake of not checking out how smooth it functioned before I took it apart, but i do know it was in time. So really i don't know if i caused these problems with my meddling or if it was already like this a bit and i made it worse.
Problem # 1: Hard to eject the cylinder. Takes a little force to pop it out to the side, not smooth at all like my other 649. Once the cylinder assembly is free from the back of the frame area it is ok. I cannot really see what it sticking. The center pin seems to depress fine, the bolt seems to push forward ok, the cylinder catch is not in the way. When i took the gun apart yesterday, i also took the cylinder assembly apart. I didn't use a vise to grab the extractor rod like they suggested in the DVD i had, but i used a pair of pliers and tried to be really careful to keep the rod centered while unscrewing. I am hoping i did not accidentally bend something like the center pin, extractor rod, or the shaft of the extractor. I did unscrew it and screw it back in several times and it doesn't look bent to the naked eye. The extractor brings me to the next problem =

problem #2 : Strong resistance to hammer being pulled back in single action on only 2 charging holes (that are next to each other). On those two charging holes, when the hammer gets to about half way back, I suddenly have a huge amount of resistance and it stops dead. It feels like if i keep pulling the hammer back I am going to break something in the gun, but when i do "force" it past this sticking point the cylinder will finish rotating correctly and the gun is still timing fine. My worry is eventually i will break something or wear something down if i ignore it. Surprisingly it seems to work fine in DA mode and is only noticeable if i pay a lot of attention (i still have the strong factory springs in it). The hand seems to be functioning fine with no gouges or anything else in it.

So guys and gals, what would be the most likely cause and do you think the two problems are related?
Parts that might be my problem for both?
-center pin bent in some way i don't see?
-extractor bent in some way i don't see, or teeth of extractor not correct? ( i really hope not, timing is way beyond my skill)
- hand not correct?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Again, I did this to learn so I don't want to hear that I should not have taken it apart etc. The whole point was to learn and be more comfortable with the working of revolvers, which I did learn a lot. Revolvers are my favorite type of firearm btw.
Thanks everyone!

 

[ispcapt]

1st thing I would try is switching the 2 screws in the sideplate. Switch the front one with the one just above and to the rear of the trigger.

 

[doak07]

I will try it, but i am 90% sure that isn't it. I was very careful to keep track of the screws and even pressed them into cardboard with a drawing of thier respective places. I did buy it used, so i guess the prior owner could have done it. I also dont suspect that is the problem because i get no resistance once the cylinder is away from the frame. The yoke/crane moves very smooth once the cylinder is "popped" out, and from my understanding i would feel resistance there. I will try to switch them tonight anyways and see.

 

[66snub]

It sounds like something is bent. Open the cylinder and spin the cylinder with the ejector rod with a quick twist of your thumb and finger. Watch and see if the ejector rod wobbles while it spins. I may be wrong, but it sounds like your ejector rod may be bent. Especially if you are running the hammer back and its only tough for a couple of spots and clears up after passing two particular charging holes. Anybody else think this?

 

[straight stick]

How about making sure that the eject rod is all the way screwed in and tight?

 

[Rpg]

I would take it to my gunsmith and have him sort it out.

Understand, it is not my practice to personally disassemble revolvers. If I have one I'm not happy with it goes to the same gunsmith. He sorts it out and makes it better for about $110.00

I don't think I'm a watchmaker or gunsmith. I let folks that have the experience and training do that.

I don't fill my own cavities either.

Just me, but I didn't sleep in a Holliday inn recently.

 

[doak07]

Tried switching the two screws, didnt seem to make a difference on my gun which surprised me, no yoke resistance even after i switched. I switched it back so now the longer screw is back in front?
I tried spinning the cylinder with it open by the ejector rod, no wobble at all that i could see.
The eject rod was all the way screwed in and tight as i could make it by hand and smidge more by pliers.
Now the DVD did NOT tell me to place empty shells or snap caps into the cylinder when it showed how to put it back together or take it apart, so i am really, really, really hoping i did not bend something with the extractor
I will take apart the cylinder assembly again tomorrow and take a close look again if anything is bent.

 

[doak07]

aw poop, it is probably bent in the area where the shaft of the extractor meets the head of the extractor. when I place the extractor and eject rod screwed together with no springs and just support it verticle hanging in the cylinder, the shaft tilts very slightly to one side =(

It could just be the eject rod, but hard to tell by itself, that doesn't look bent.

 

[flintsghost]

The eject rod was all the way screwed in and tight as i could make it by hand and smidge more by pliers.
Now the DVD did NOT tell me to place empty shells or snap caps into the cylinder when it showed how to put it back together or take it apart, so i am really, really, really hoping i did not bend something with the extractor
I will take apart the cylinder assembly again tomorrow and take a close look again if anything is bent.

If the DVD didn't indicate to use empty cases or dummy rounds in at least two chambers, then you need a new DVD made by someone who knows what they're talking about. That is absolutely standard procedure taught by S&W in their armorers course. Using "pliers" doesn't sound good to me as a tool to tighten or loosen the ejector rod, unless they were specifically made for the job. It is possible to damage the extractor and the ejector rod by over torquing the part, to include even snapping it off.
Depending on the age of the 649, it may have a older style extractor/ratchet assembly or a newer style. The older style with the two tiny locator pins and a small groove in the shaft is much more prone to harm by not using the dummy rounds than the newer. Any damage to that is not repairable locally as Smith doesn't sell ratchet/extractors to anyone and they have to be factory fitted. If the small locator machined inside the cylinder recess that the extractor groove rides in is damaged you would also need a new cylinder.

The tightness you are experiencing in cocking on two chambers may be a problem in the "carry up" or timing that could be caused by improper assembly or possibly by already having done damage to the ratchet. There are so many possible problems that it's hard to diagnose things by description and a certified armorer needs to be looking at it in person.

 

[kaaskop49]

rpg is a savvy hombre. I agree with him. Find a cigar box to put all the parts in and bring your gun to a qualified local gunsmith. Tell him you got in over your head and you need his help. You'll be happier and you'll have a gun properly assembled, and a repair made if necessary.

I know I'm making some folks angry. Have a nice day.

 

[snubbyfan]

rpg is a savvy hombre. I agree with him. Find a cigar box to put all the parts in and bring your gun to a qualified local gunsmith. Tell him you got in over your head and you need his help. You'll be happier and you'll have a gun properly assembled, and a repair made if necessary.

I know I'm making some folks angry. Have a nice day.

I agree, instead of tying to guess or risk making it worse, take it to a qualified gunsmith.

 

[doak07]

Thanks everyone for the info. I am going to send it to s&w because i do believe it is actually part of the extractor (old style) that is bent, and since local gunsmiths usually can't order those.... (see Picture with ejector rod screwed on)

After playing with it some more I am sure now that I did NOT bend it myself. When I put the cylinder assembly back together for the first time, I was very gentle, and when I said I used "pliers", I mean just a tiny bit at the end to snug it up, not much force. Now since it is bent anyways I have been playing with it (I am sure S&W would just put a new extractor on and set the timing to it) and I am telling you I used ALOT more force now to try and straiten the part, and it wont budge. Now I am not going nuts on it, still being careful, but I am telling you that the shaft of that part is not as delicate as it looks. My playing around is not making it worse, not making it better, not making any difference at all.

After playing around with it for a while I am sure now that I bought it this way and just never noticed it was rough with two charging holes in single action. This was not a pretty gun when I purchased it, in fact i always thought someone kept it in a tool box or something like that. I included a picture of the cylinder. Those are not surface scratches but actual gouges in the metal. Whatever was hitting the cylinder hard enough to gouge the metal multiple times in it's past life, would certainly be hitting hard enough to bend something in the cylinder assembly.

To all the nay-sayers out there, i would do it again in a heartbeat. I had alot of fun, I learned a TON about how the gun works, and it has made me more comfortable with doing basic maintenace on revolvers in general since I can now picture what is going on inside of it when it functions. I feel no fear of replacing any drop-in parts on it now, but I will still leave parts related to timing to the pros.

So everyone knows the DVD i used I ordered from Midway, and it did NOT mention putting spent cartridges or snap caps in when reassembling or disassembling the cylinder, even though i will make sure to do that from now on, in my particular case here i dont think it was what messed up my gun:
American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) Disassembly Reassembly Course

 

[flagman1776]

S&W may not have new parts for a 1988 production model... unless newer models use the same parts. You might want to find a high skilled gunsmith outside the factory. This ought to be within the skill set of an old time armorer (S&W trained many PD armorers who still have the skills to set your gun right).