.22 .32 .38 .380 9x19 about the same in short barrels

[TomkinsSP]

Looking for something else, I found a recent (7am Tuesday, September 26, 2017) review of a multiple caliber, multiple ammo gel test conducted by Greg Ellifritz at the Buckeye Firearms Association. (Buckeye Firearms Association | Defending Your Firearm Rights)

Basically they shot clear (synthetic?) gel with "heavy clothing" using 2" (1 7/8"?) j frame snubbies, a 2.75" lcp and a 3.39" G43. .22LR penetrated 13"-15", .32 Mag 13"-16", .38 Spl 16", .380 13"-16", 9x19 16".

OTHER THAN 9x19 HST (from a 3.39" barrel, I wonder what it would have done from 2 1/8") NONE EXPANDED.

"Many knolegeable handgun instructors have noted there isn't much significant difference in stopping power between most of the rounds people shoot at criminals."

Based on my limited experience, I tend to agree.

 

[Joe4d]

Thats why I have a 45 with big flat nose .
.45" unexpanded is what those other guys wish they could be.
That or a 357 with at least 3" of barrel.
Pretty much why I dont like snubnose 38/357 revolvers. For their size weight and recoil, u can pretty much match it with a compact 9mm. Have more rounds traveling at higher velocity with less recoil.
However those gel tests dont show much but what the bullet does in gel. People have many variables. Hit the sternum, u'll get all the expansion u need.
Id rather have penetration over expansion anyways.
I killed alot of deer and pigs with non expanding just kinda deformed hard cast SWC's
IMO the difference between bacon and beans is bullet mass.

 

[APS]

"Many knolegeable handgun instructors have noted there isn't much significant difference in stopping power between most of the rounds people shoot at criminals."
Based on my limited experience, I tend to agree.

Yeah as most civilian incidents are resolved with a psychological stop where caliber doesn't really matter.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Yeah as most civilian incidents are resolved with a psychological stop where caliber doesn't really matter.

If you look at Gregg Ellifritz's study of ~1800 shootings over a 10-year period, it still holds. Service calibers all perform about the same, averaging 2-3 shots to incapacitate a person.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

 

[walnutred]

Todays paper had brief article about a man listed in "good" condition. he took a 9mm to the head, bullet didn't penetrate the scull. I'd love to have more details.

 

[tops]

Todays paper had brief article about a man listed in "good" condition. he took a 9mm to the head, bullet didn't penetrate the scull. I'd love to have more details.

I called my wifes brother and he said it wasn't him. I can't believe there is another person that is that hard headed. Larry

 

[ContinentalOp]

Todays paper had brief article about a man listed in "good" condition. he took a 9mm to the head, bullet didn't penetrate the scull. I'd love to have more details.

It's not uncommon. The skull is very strong, and unless the round is able to hit it square on it's probably more likely to glance off. I once saw a training video where a police officer who had survived a gunfight was being interviewed. He was shot between the eyes, breaking the bridge of his eyeglasses. The round penetrated the skin, went around the side of his skull, and exited the skin on the other side of his head.

This is why shooters being trained to make head shots are taught to aim for the inverted triangle between the eyes and nose as a round is more likely to penetrate there than other parts of the skull.

 

[ispcapt]

Todays paper had brief article about a man listed in "good" condition. he took a 9mm to the head, bullet didn't penetrate the scull. I'd love to have more details.

It all depends on where it hit, the angle, and the bullet path.
One of my SAs was involved in a shoot out and hit twice. The bad guy was shooting a BHP with Federal 115 BPLE. The first rd hit him in the skull and he dropped. He then got up and was hit the 2nd time in the wrist which dropped him again and took him out of the fight. Sound strange the head shot didn't stop him but he wrist shot did? Not if you know the angles and where.
The shot to his skull was a glancing wound. It definitely hit the skull but it was the side of his head under the skin.
The shot to the wrist entered near the wrist bone, traveled thru his forearm, and exited out his elbow. It broke his forearm and took out his elbow.
The wound to his head healed nicely and was barely visible. His hand and elbow were permanently damaged. The 3rd and 4th fingers were permanently bent and useless. He could only move his elbow about 1/2 the normal use. It also left him with permanent nerve damage and pain.
Another example. Local guy shot his dad with a .270 and killed him. We located the subject and the pursuit began. He drove into a field and got stuck. He came out with the .270, rested his chin on the muzzle and shot himself in the head. The news reported he shot himself in the head with a .270 and survived. Everyone asked how is that possible? People were saying no way he show himself with a .270 in the head and survived. The news had to have reported it wrong. How did he survive? The path of the bullet just removed part of his lower jaw. A few weeks in the hospital for reconstruction on the jaw bone and he was off to jail.
So when someone says a person took a head shot or a COM shot and wasn't affected that doesn't tell anyone anything. What was the angle? What path did the bullet take? A "head shot" doesn't tell anyone anything.

 

[BB57]

Yeah as most civilian incidents are resolved with a psychological stop where caliber doesn't really matter.

Psychological stops occur about 50% of the time, regardless of whether it is an armed citizen involved shoot or an officer involved shoot.

Sane people don't like to get shot, and generally stop doing whatever it is that is causing them to get shot. The "floor" in that case is a round that is sufficient for the assailant to realize he or she has been shot. I'm not that confident that the .22LR will meet that criteria.

Insane people or people on drugs don't like to get shot either, but may not have the mental capacity to stop doing whatever is causing you to shoot them.

There are also some other factors involved. For example a fair number of violent criminals despise women and are less likely to yield to a woman, before or after she shoots them, than they would be to a man.

If you don't get a psychological stop, unless you score a central nervous hit no "stop" will be "immediate". Even a hit in the upper chambers of the heart or the large artery above it will leave the assailant with 10-15 seconds of usable consciousness, and he or she can do a lot of harm in 10-15 seconds. If the hit is in the much more muscular lower chambers of the heart, that time can be a minute or more.

Practically speaking, if you do not get an immediate, throw the gun down and throw their hands in the air, or fall on the ground response, you are going to keep shooting, and you will need to keep shooting until the assailant is down.

That tends to create problem in the data. You'll get about half of the shooting event where a single hit occurred, and about half where their are multiple hits, any one of which may or may not have been effective given enough time, but did not produce a stop fast enough to preclude additional shots being fired.

 

[BB57]

Looking for something else, I found a recent (7am Tuesday, September 26, 2017) review of a multiple caliber, multiple ammo gel test conducted by Greg Ellifritz at the Buckeye Firearms Association. (Buckeye Firearms Association | Defending Your Firearm Rights)

Basically they shot clear (synthetic?) gel with "heavy clothing" using 2" (1 7/8"?) j frame snubbies, a 2.75" lcp and a 3.39" G43. .22LR penetrated 13"-15", .32 Mag 13"-16", .38 Spl 16", .380 13"-16", 9x19 16".

OTHER THAN 9x19 HST (from a 3.39" barrel, I wonder what it would have done from 2 1/8") NONE EXPANDED.

"Many knolegeable handgun instructors have noted there isn't much significant difference in stopping power between most of the rounds people shoot at criminals."

Based on my limited experience, I tend to agree.

I could not find the article and wading though that site is tedious.

My concern however is that this may be obscuring the reality that some rounds do take a much more significant hit in velocity than others.

.380 ACP and and .32 ACP tend to lose more velocity than 9mm as barrel lengths fall below 3.5", and they have no real margin in performance to lose.

For example, a maximum pressure .32 ACP 60 gr XTP load will produce an average velocity of 1051 fps in a 3.9" PP, but will produce only 975 fps in a 3.5" PPK. That 75 fps is significant as the bullet in question will expand reliably and get 12" penetration above 1000 fps but will not expand reliably below 1000 fps. The same holds true for the 90 gr XTP in .380 ACP as well.

In some respects the .38 Special is even worse. A 125 gr .38 +P load will produce a velocity around 1100 fps in a 4" barrel, 1050 fps in a 3" barrel, but then falls off to just 950 fps in a 2 1/8" barrel, and 930 fps in a 1 7/8" barrel.

Here however the terminal results are even more complex. The XTP series is normally a good choice for a marginal cartridge like .32 ACP, .380 ACP as the bullet expands slower and in more of a mushroom shape, achieving about 1.5x original diameter, rather than quickly over expanding and reducing penetration to less than 12". In the .38 Special performance is good in plain ballistic gel but the points plug and prevent expansion at .38 Special velocities. With a standard pressure load, it will still penetrate well, it just won't expand. At .38 +P velocities it still won't expand but it will over penetrate. However once you get it up to short barrel .357 Magnum velocities around 1250-1300 fps it is very effective with excellent expansion and near perfect penetration. I put a lot of time and effort into getting an optimal performing load in my 2 1/2" and 3".357 Magnum revolvers.

In short, there is a lot going on and how well a short barrel handgun, cartridge and load combination actually performs depends on a lot of variables, including how short the barrel really is, the cartridge, the bullet being used, and the specifics of individual revolvers. For example a short barrel pistol with more generous chamber and bore dimensions may be 50 fps slower than an otherwise identical pistol. Similarly, you can find even larger differences I revolvers due to differences in chamber, cylinder gap and bore dimensions.

 

[TomkinsSP]

South Dakota: JafewofMOs (just a few of my observations/ opinions), I carry a 1 7/8" or 2 1/4" .38 Special daily, have for 40 years. I have not ever personally seen standard velocity rounds expand when fired from tubes that short. The only sure way to get a positive stop is a CNS hit. Penetration trumps diameter. Diameter is diameter be it a .451 round that started that way, or one that expanded to .451. BUT, SINCE PENETRATION TRUMPS DIAMETER, the heavier round is going to retain more momentum than a lighter round, so all else being equal it will penetrate more.

In civilian SD encounters, most criminals stop an assault once they find thier victim is capable of inflicting deadly harm. In most cases no shots are fired, thus the caliber and bullet design are irrelevant. In a case where the criminal gets shot and decides he doesn't like the sensation I am certain a 148/158 grain thunk from a .38 trumps a 85/100 grain thunk from a .32 or .380, which trumps a 40/60 grain thunk from a .22 or .25. If it's a CNS hit well, again the caliber or bullet design is immaterial.

While you may have to keep firing to 'convince' a criminal to stop his assault and at some point in time if critical structures in Mr. Methhead are not being impacted then dropping a criminal perpetrator requires a larger number of rounds. Again little difference between the calibers typically used.

I think people think too much about the equipment, optimizing the equipment, when daily carry and consistent practice would do them better. Better a KelTec . 32 you can shoot well and carry religiously than a Jerry M signature edition .357 in a safe at home. If finances dictate a .22, eight or nine hits in the noggin from a .22 will put anyone down.

I typed in KelTec spellcheck changed to melted, just sayin.

 

[BB57]

I think we mostly agree.

I see way to many guys who say things like "I'd really be more comfortable with my wife (or girl friend) carrying a 9mm Para." That then leads them to wanting to select a small 9mm that just isn't comfortable for their wife or girl friend to shoot.

Similarly too many guys 9and gun shop staff) push the argument that women won't carry a gun unless it is light weight, and then select or suggest things like a Airweight .38 Special. The problem is that even with standard pressure loads, they can be uncomfortable to shoot. A steel J-frame would be much more comfortable to shoot, and easier to shoot well, and is still not so heavy that a woman won't carry it.

In both cases, a pistol or revolver that is uncomfortably to shoot won't get shot often, and won't get shot often enough for the shooter to ever shoot it well. It's then the lack of confidence in it that results in it being left home.

My response then to both types of comments is that I would much rather have my wife carry a handgun that she selected, and that she likes to shoot, so that she'll shoot it more often and shoot it well enough to be effective, and more importantly be confident with it - regardless of the caliber.

-----

I agree with you as well that often the presence of a handgun and the potential for a victim to defend themselves will quite often prevent a crime.

Most "successful" criminals (those who manage to stay alive and out of jail for any length of time) are pretty good at reading people. If they are approaching a victim and the victim makes contact with them beyond a certain range, they usually divert and select an easier, less aware target. If the victim also isn't showing any fear, then diversion to a softer target is almost certain. The criminal might not know why the victim isn't showing the expected amount of fear, but the smart one's don't really want to find out.

I've been in two employment related situations where drawing a gun was necessary to stop an assailant and both times drawing the weapon with the clear intent to use it was sufficient to get an immediate stop.

I also had a personal experience where I got off work late in DC and needed to get to an ATM and then to the AT&T store to resolve a phone problem before they closed (in about 15 minutes). As a result I got off the metro, and got $300 out of a nearby ATM. I then started quickly walking to the AT&T store about 2 blocks away. It was a total situational awareness failure on my part as ATM are a prime starting point for a mugger, since they know you have cash and will mug you once you are out of video coverage. I was however very fast to get to the store on time, but after walking a block and turning down another street, I realized I had just made a wrong turn and immediately turned around - and encountered a hoodie wearing would be mugger about 3 feet behind me with one hand coming up toward me and the other hand coming out of his pocket with a knife. My right hand automatically went to my hip using my thumb to lift my jacket and shirt to draw, while my other hand went out to block the attack and create both time and space for the draw. But before I could even get start the draw he recognized what was about to happen and bolted in the other direction.

Criminals in the DC area are just not expecting their victims to be armed and willing to shoot them. This is an example where the cartridge used won't matter at all as the presence or even the suspected presence of a handgun and a willingness to use it is sufficient to end the attack. It's also an example where it is very unlikely the almost victim is even going to report the attempted crime, and are thus not reported as crimes that were prevented by the presence of a handgun.

 

[DocB]

No commonly carried handgun calibers are very powerful to start with. You have to move to a heavy 357 magnum and a long barrel to really see much power at all. It amazes me how all our deer hunters around here like to carry a 30-06 or 7 mm magnum. Seriously, do they really think it takes 3000 ft lbs to kill a little white tail deer. Yet, they will carry a little pistol for self defense that generates 300 ft lbs and feel well armed. I guess anything is better than nothing. I'm guilty too. I usually carry a 38, but I also hunt deer with a handgun.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I for one like down loading the 30-06 to "Krag" specks as well
as a 270 cal. 130gr down to 2700fps for Western deer type game
so I come home with more meat, that I don't have to cut away
due to blood hemerage.

As for the "Buckeye data".....
I take it with a grain of salt.

It does not come near what my test have shown and all the net
stuff that I have looked up over 40 years.
However if you own a .32..................... good for you.

 

[jupiter1]

Too many people worship at the altar of bullet diameter and expanded bullet diameter. Back in the day, 100 plus years ago, handgun power was measured by penetration of pine boards and people seemed content with that method. After encountering Moro warriors, they began to talk about 'shocking power' and the Thompson Lagarde tests attempted to measure it.

Now that I have seen the studies currently done with gelatin, high speed photography etc, I'm starting to believe that the old pine board test wasn't far off. Handgun bullets, at service velocities, don't shock large animals or humans, expanded or not. After all, that is what we are looking to accomplish; a shocking blow that disables an attacker whether it kills him or not. I don't think that exists unless we are using full power rifle rounds and even those are not 100%.

Adequate penetration is a must. Place your shots as best as possible and be prepared for the possibility of a delayed effect on your adversary.

 

[Telecaster]

For subcompact short barrels, the new screwdriver-tip bullets show promise. Paul Harrell tested some .380 +P Underwood Extreme Penetrator and it performed really well . They aren't meant to expand, but produce large wound channels and good but not over-penetration.