22-4 accuracy and bullet diameter

[Stophel]

I have my project 22-4 that I'm pretty well done with. I've been out shooting it in. Not the most accurate handgun I've ever owned. At about 20 yards, I get six shot groups about 5-8" across (resting on my knee). Now, I'm a lousy shot, but I can usually do at least a little better than that.

The load I've been shooting: Hardcast 230 gr. big flat point bullet. An RCBS "cowboy" mould, sized at .452, and Aloxed. (also shooting a Lee TC 230gr, and even ordinary factory jacketed bullet loads, all with similar effect.) Loaded with 6.0gr of Unique. Fairly stiff feeling, I'd estimate close to 900fps (?). Zero high pressure signs.

I just measured my chamber throats. They're all right at .454". Do you all think I'd be better off sizing to .453"? My RCBS mould throws a bullet about .455" diameter, so I can size it however I want. I have not slugged the bore, but I CAREFULLY measured it with calipers and get close to .451" (which is about what I would expect, hard to really measure something like this this way). This gun does not exactly have the smoothest rifling I have ever seen either....

Could I also go with a soft lead at this velocity, without an undue amount of leading? (I get ZERO noticeable leading right now.)

This may mean nothing too, but my recovered bullets don't show a whole lot of rifling engraving...of course, I'm digging them out of a big piece of wood, so I don't know how well the rifling engraving would hold up after penetrating 3" of wet yellow pine!

 

[Stophel]

I have my project 22-4 that I'm pretty well done with. I've been out shooting it in. Not the most accurate handgun I've ever owned. At about 20 yards, I get six shot groups about 5-8" across (resting on my knee). Now, I'm a lousy shot, but I can usually do at least a little better than that.

The load I've been shooting: Hardcast 230 gr. big flat point bullet. An RCBS "cowboy" mould, sized at .452, and Aloxed. (also shooting a Lee TC 230gr, and even ordinary factory jacketed bullet loads, all with similar effect.) Loaded with 6.0gr of Unique. Fairly stiff feeling, I'd estimate close to 900fps (?). Zero high pressure signs.

I just measured my chamber throats. They're all right at .454". Do you all think I'd be better off sizing to .453"? My RCBS mould throws a bullet about .455" diameter, so I can size it however I want. I have not slugged the bore, but I CAREFULLY measured it with calipers and get close to .451" (which is about what I would expect, hard to really measure something like this this way). This gun does not exactly have the smoothest rifling I have ever seen either....

Could I also go with a soft lead at this velocity, without an undue amount of leading? (I get ZERO noticeable leading right now.)

This may mean nothing too, but my recovered bullets don't show a whole lot of rifling engraving...of course, I'm digging them out of a big piece of wood, so I don't know how well the rifling engraving would hold up after penetrating 3" of wet yellow pine!

 

[Skip Sackett]

Hey Sto,
Ain't it fun playing with this kind of stuff?
I love doing it!

Can you try this? Don't size your bullets at all. If you have a true .454" throat a .455" bullet is what you want anyway.

Seeing as you are Alox lubing anyway, this will save you a step too. Only do a half of a dozen or so.

Here is what I suspect you to find. That they won't chamber that way. The bullet won't allow the case to be fully seated.

What is the process that you reload to now? You know, what press, dies and such like?

This is all a moot point if you use a LFCD as it will "resize" the bullet while it is in the case.

 

[Wesprt]

Sounds like your chamber throats are way too big. Not a whole lot to be done with that, other than a new cylinder.

 

[Stophel]

Old Lyman orange press. RCBS carbide dies. I have a moderate crimp on the cases. I need to back off the crimp just a bit, as about one out of every ten or fifteen doesn't want to chamber easily, as the crimp bucks up a bit.

Anyway, I'm going to try a larger bullet (the bullets as cast are not going to go into the chamber at all). See what that does for me. If I'm at the point to where I need a new cylinder, I'm through foolin' with the gun.

 

[Stophel]

Hey, I may have stumbled onto one of my problems....My sizer ain't sizin' right! It never crossed my mind before to measure the bullets coming out of my .452 Lee sizer...I just presumed that they would be right. They ain't! Between .450" and .451"!!!! That's too dang small! I'm going to try a couple of different sizers.

Now I wasn't getting outstanding performance with jacketed bullets, but by golly, this surely will explain some of my problems with my cast bullets!

Also, I rechecked my cyl. throats. I needed to re-zero my calipers, and now I get .453", which is MUCH more to my liking.

Maybe I'll get things figured out sooner or later!

 

[nitesite]

Originally posted by Stophel:
This may mean nothing too, but my recovered bullets don't show a whole lot of rifling engraving...

Something like this?

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

My 25-5 has .453 throats and it shoots the .452 jacketed and lead much better than anything smaller. If you can leave your bullets as cast or at least size no smaller than .453 you will see a marked change in your accuracy.

 

[Stophel]

I haven't had a chance yet to fool with it much more. The mould I would prefer to use is the RCBS "cowboy" mould, which throws a 230gr .454" bullet with a huge flat point. A big, hammer-headed S.O.B. I definitely have to size that one down. I'll get another sizer and shoot for .452 or .453.

Would dead soft pure lead be sufficient for bullet material for something like this? My chosen power level is about 900fps. Definitely cheaper and a bit easier to get than hardball alloy.

 

[rdc]

Just tested my 22-4 today again with 255 gr Laser casts bullets, 7.0 gr Unique in AR cases. At 10 yds, it was under 2" standing. To me that is fine shooting and it's a keeper. With 200 or 230 gr .451 bullets, I was just about ready to sell it. I could not keep it on an a 8" bull at 10 ft. I'm pleased as punch now and would encourage you to continue. It will shoot cast bullets!!

 

[Dale53]

Stopfel;
The rule of thumb is to size your bullets as large as you can easily chamber. I recommend ww+2%tin for an alloy. If you cylinder is actually .453" then bullets sized to that diameter should work quite well. Keep in mind that measuring cylinder throats with a dial caliper is not a particularly accurate way of doing this. Pin gauges would be much better. Or you could remove the cylinder from your revolver (to avoid damaging the crane) and drive a lead slug through EACH chamber and then using a quality micrometer measure the slugs. Many use lead egg sinkers of the appropriate diameter (found at any respectable sporting goods store) for slugs.

Even the new Speer manual mentions that .45 ACP "Hard Ball" doesn't work particularly well in the .45 ACP revolvers (not very accurate). I'll have to take their word for it as I use only my cast bullets in my 625's.

Dale53

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
I would make my bullets softer

 

[AzShooter]

Making your bullets softer will give you more problems than the hard cast. Wheel weights would work good. Add some linotype if you want them hard but that's not needed.

If you don't have a set of pin guages order a set of push through plugs from LBT. You get 20 slugs so you can do your barrel and your cylinders and get a reliable reading.

http://lbtmoulds.com/

Get his lapping kit as well and lap the barrel so that it is nice and smooth.

You need to mike all of your cylinder throats and make sure they are the same. That is the size you want to make your bullets. If they are smaller they will not line up perfectly straight when going into the barrel.

Soft bullets will not obturate correctly to give you accuracy.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Making your bullets softer will give you more problems than the hard cast.

No, Az, that's not all together true. Making them the right hardness is the key.

That is a factor of several things. Bore/chamber/throat size, velocity of rounds/pressure are another. They work hand in hand. If you are shooting mild loads soft is good. The harder you push them the harder you need to make your bullets. Not a lot but some. I would say the range for most of my firearms are 10BHN to 20BHN and that covers the velocity range from 700fps to 1800fps in different calibers and firearms.

That being said, from the same mold, softer bullets are going to be heavier but smaller, and harder ones will be bigger and lighter.

To a point you can correct some size issues by going a touch harder. Too hard and you lose the advantage.


FWIW