22 Single shot

[S&W ucla]

Of the 4,616 2nd model SS any guess as to how many have 6" barrel? It is shown as "rare" in the book. Thanks

Now with pics. All sn match 4508. Looks correct to me, but I will send for letter.

LETTER HAS ARRIVED!
It shipped June 24,1910 to Valley Hardware, no address shown.
6" Bbl, blue finish, black hard rubber target grips.
Always nice when it turns out to be what you thought it was

 

[rct269]

I have seen exactly one in the last 30 years of serious looking. It was a fugitive from a junk yard. I passed. I've been thinking about having second thoughts about that. I know where one is---NIB---NOT FOR SALE!! I know of one other---85% in box----NOT FOR SALE!! I once called on one the day I received my copy of The Gun List. The nice lady said, "Oh, that's the pretty blue one! Oh, Honey----that's been gone for two weeks." The good news is it was right about then I learned you could get your copy of The Gun List delivered by UPS Next Day Air----and that's the way I got it from then on----and every Friday at about 10:00 A.M., "Mr. Tremaine is not available at the moment. He will return your call this afternoon." I was then able to buy a lot of good guns two weeks before most folks knew they were available----but no 6" 2nds. I have two glaring holes in my SS shelves---a 6" 2nd and an 8" 3rd. I have never seen a legitimate 8" 3rd. And again, I know where one is---NIB----NOT FOR SALE!! And if I owned one or both, they would also be NOT FOR SALE!!

And your post has caused me great pain, so let's have no more of such foolishness!

I just remembered a true story which should answer your question very succinctly: The owner of the NIB 6" 2nd took it to a "Show & Tell". There were any number of very heavy hitters in attendance. One took out his checkbook---filled in everything except an amount, and pushed it across the table, saying "Just fill in the amount----whatever it takes---I MUST have that gun!" The very heavy hitter went home without the gun.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Looking at the SWCA Database, there are no entries for a 6" barreled 2nd Model, and there are only four 8" 3rd Model SS pistols listed.

 

[rct269]

And on the other hand, I have a very spiffy 6" barrel assembly you can slap on an appropriate frame; and you'll be good to go!!! I've seen any number of such creations put together by either idiots----or folks who thought I might be an idiot.

And speaking of databases Gary, I have a 6" 3rd Model (#4807). If guns from Joe Miller's "Survivors List" made it to the current database, then it's probably on there. If not, feel free to add it. (I have no idea how to do that----probably because I've never looked at it----although I might have to take a look to see how many of those there may be.)

Ralph Tremaine

Forget it----it's there. I found it searching by serial number. Presumably I can find others (if any) searching by model. I'll give that a try. (And it would at least appear Joe Miller's list has become part of this database.)

 

[S&W ucla]

It was great to see the huge SS display in Columbus!

Here is a little bit more foolishness for Ralph! (pics added in first post) Nice to meet you as well!

 

[H Richard]

Ralph, I have a 3rd Model with an 8" barrel, (But, it is a 2nd model barrel).



The front sight is wrong, and someone had messed around inside it and had placed a (?) K frame rebound spring slide that had been filed down to work . It didn't very well, the side plate was up a little and when I tightened the screws down the gun wouldn't function. I was able to get a 32 H E (I Frame) rebound slide and it works perfectly.

 

[glowe]

Ralph, I have a 3rd Model with an 8" barrel, (But, it is a 2nd model barrel). The front sight is wrong, and someone had messed around inside it and had placed a (?) K frame rebound spring slide that had been filed down to work .

Dick - Does the barrel number to the frame? I'm just curious if there was a factory assembled mis-match for my future shopping pleasure. Also, I have gotten appropriate target front sights from our generous members in the past. It would certainly improve sighting if you had a nice silver or gold dot to look at.

 

[H Richard]

Gary, no the barrel does not match the frame. Roy told me it was a 3rd frame and 2nd model barrel. I have shot it a few times, and the grips are a little too skinny for me to get a good grip on. But I have plenty of .22 S&W's to shoot.

 

[glowe]

Too bad - I was hoping that there was a new "Transition" model out there to collect.

 

[S&W ucla]

Lucked up and got a ship date. June 1910. It looks pretty "spiffy" for a 104 year old! Letter request is in process, I'll let ya'll know what it says.

 

[S&W ucla]

Letter arrived, see first post.

 

[deadin]

I have a 2nd Model 8" serial 3587 that shipped 15 Feb 1910.
Mine is no where as nice as the one under discussion but it is only gun I have that lettered to an actual person rather than a distributor/hardware store. It went to a C.L. Flannigan. According to my research I'm pretty confident that he was one of the "Exhibition Shooters" of the early 1900-1930's that ran with the likes of Ed McGivern, Ad & Plinky Toepperwein, etc.

 

[Modelof1891]

2nd Model Single Shot 6 inch

Nice find you have there ucla!

I have only seen the 1st model type roll stamp on single shot (barrels) edited.. up to 2,800. Yours has the first model type barrel markings, on a (4508)high number 2nd model frame.

It is great to know all your numbers match and it letters that way!!!

This information is added to my collection of "Different from the Norm" list.

Thanks!
Terry Wagner

 

[rct269]

Hi, Terry!

I'm not exactly sure I understand your comment about 1st Model roll stamps on 2nd Model frames, but it's my understanding ALL 6 & 8" 2nd Models carry 1st Model barrels. I have an 8" 2nd (#3666) with 1st Model barrel (all numbers match). The odd balls in this respect are early 10" 2nd Models with 1st Model barrels.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[deadin]

but it's my understanding ALL 6 & 8" 2nd Models carry 1st Model barrels.

Ralph,
My lettered 8", matching 2nd Model's barrel is sans patent dates. (Isn't that the difference between 1st and 2nd Model barrels?)

 

[rct269]

Patent dates? I had to look. The most glaring difference is 1st barrels carry the "Model of 91" marking and regular, everyday 2nd's (10" guns) don't---just the regular "one line" address. That said, the 1st barrels do indeed have patent dates. And a "short" barrel 2nd with a "one line" address is a new one on me!

The moral of this story is never say always, and never say never----like I did---in block caps no less!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[nutsforsmiths]

Here is my 2nd model with a factory 8" barrel. Shipped to Kimball Hardware in Tacoma, WA in 1909. All numbers match. This one is in the database.

 

[deadin]

Ralph, Here's an out for you.
Seeing as how my 8" went to a named individual and at a date (1910) after the end of production for this model (1909), what are the chances that it was a special order and they were out of 8" 1st Model barrels and the factory had to custom shorten a 10"?

 

[rct269]

GRASPING AT STRAWS

Ralph, Here's an out for you.
Seeing as how my 8" went to a named individual and at a date (1910) after the end of production for this model (1909), what are the chances that it was a special order and they were out of 8" 1st Model barrels and the factory had to custom shorten a 10"?

It's an entirely reasonable straw to grasp---aside from a few minor glitches. I assume by "custom shorten a 10" you mean section an equal amount from before and after the roll mark so the mark stays centered----which I'd bet money your's is. While it is an extremely delicate operation, it would probably be easier to simply stretch a 6". Then there's the fact my 8" 2nd (with the PROPER barrel on it) was shipped after yours (May 8, 1910)----which while a sure enough fact, means/proves absolutely nothing which might save my sorry butt. Then there's another (real) fact which is they had scads of 1st Model barrels left---even after the 3rd Model (and the 4th Model) went out of production------and didn't finally bite the bullet and dump them until sometime in the 1950's (??)-----whenever they moved from old to new factory.

Besides that, I didn't actually say ALL 6 & 8" barrels on 2nds were 1st barrels. Being well versed and skilled in the use of weasel words, I said such was "my understanding". (It hardly seems necessary to note the skillful use of weasel words is pretty much a necessity when discussing what S&W (always or never) did or didn't do.) Were I to find myself in the position of actually having to defend an erroneous statement of fact, you may rest assured I would leave no stone unturned to find someone else to blame it on. Truth be known, I actually did turn over several stones in my quest to find out where "my understanding" came from. That took about two minutes, and while I took my source's words to mean ALL short 2nd's had 1st barrels, that isn't what he said. Being also well versed and skillful in the use of weasel words, he merely implied it-----and I gobbled it right up! This is but one of the perils encountered when one reads with one's eyes, rather than with one's brain.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[jrs70]

I have collected several different items over the years. The one thing I like is you never know what is going to turn up. This is just one example.

 

[crossv]

2nd Single Shot - 6 in

Here is a 6 in bbl second model single shot. I guess maybe I need to letter it. For the experts on these, any idea of who RML might be?

 

[crossv]

First single shot - 8 in

Hope I am not hijacking the thread because this is a First Model SS

 

[rct269]

Crossv, your 6" single shot may or may not be a 2nd Model. I grant you it looks like a 2nd Model (from a distance), but it's built on a 1st Model (two pin) frame. If its serial number is below 4,600 and something (and probably quite a bit below that), it will (almost certainly) letter as a 2nd Model. If, on the other hand, its number is (typically) in the high 'teens/low twenties (18-19-20,XXX), then it will not.

So------------------------what's the number?

Ralph Tremaine

And R.M.L. is (again, almost certainly) the individual who ordered the engraving----and likely the person to whom the gun was shipped (or the person for whom the gun was intended). That speculation is based on the quality of the engraving (good) and the coverage (sparse), suggesting the engraving is factory, and the coverage option selected was Class C (or whatever label was then applicable to the minimal coverage option).

 

[crossv]

The six inch 2nd model (I thought) is sn 14xx, matching frame, barrel and latch.

 

[rct269]

The six inch 2nd model (I thought) is sn 14xx, matching frame, barrel and latch.

You thought right, and are good to go-------with my compliments, congratulations, and just a wee tinge of envy!

And there's another thing you're right about----GET A LETTER!!!

Ralph Tremaine

And---it would appear you are in need of a rear sight blade. I have a machinist's drawing of same----and have had a blade made from the drawing (which fit perfectly). Tell me your mailing address if you'd like to have a copy of the drawing. If you are also in need of the retaining plate and/or screws, they are also treated in the drawing.

 

[touchoneoff]

Wow, I've never seen one like that before. For a gun that old, it looks to be in very good shape.

 

[crossv]

I do have a sight blade for 14xx, the historic user apparently preferred to use the integral sight groove on the latch because the slot for the sight blade was caked solid with grease, so I left it that way, but it is probably more proper to install the sight blade. I would like to know more about the two pin frame; I see what you are pointing out since I have three first model SS and a second model #23xx without the second pin and 10 bbl with the one line address. I have seen mention that maybe some very early second models had the ears milled off, without the side grooves and even with cylinder hand slots. So I assume just after that the grooves were added and cylinder slot omitted, but I guess some frames had the two pin holes which had to be filled? I looked through all my books this afternoon, but found no discussion of the two pin second model frames.

 

[rct269]

I don't know that I can tell you a whole lot about the two pin frame that is particularly unique. It's the "Model of 91" revolver frame. Many/most/?? 1st Models use that frame complete with all the bits and pieces used in the revolver. Toward the end of the 1st Model run, they started making changes. I'm told there are 1st Models with no ears, but with everything else. I'm told Jinks has one . I've never seen one. I'm told there are 1st Models with no revolver (only) action bits and pieces inside. I don't doubt that for a minute, but I don't know that they left the factory that way or if they were stripped by an owner. At a point in time when the decision was made to move from a dual purpose frame/action to a pure single shot, several changes were made, but not all at once----and not necessarily in the order I'm going to show---as near as I can tell. The ears went away. The internal bits and pieces went away. The slots for the internal (revolver only) pieces went away. The grooves appeared----why I don't know. They don't account for enough weight to change/improve the balance. I think the grooves are pure aesthetics----they break up a (comparatively) large open/flat space. And finally (assuming I haven't overlooked anything) the second pin went away.

So why were two pin frames (otherwise configured the same as 2nd Models) used for 2nd Models? Because they had some in inventory, and weren't inclined to throw them away----no mystery there. How come two pin 2nd Models show up so late (comparatively speaking) in the 2nd Model series? I don't know. Best guess is they found some frames they had misplaced. Don't laugh----the post-war .32 Regulation Police Targets came into being in the late 50's because somebody stumbled upon a case of (pre-war) barreled frames in a dark, dusty corner of a warehouse----or so says Herbie Harris-----and as far as I'm concerned you can take what he says as gospel.

The remaining question is where is Terry Wagner when we need him? I collect target guns. Single shots are target guns, so I have some. Terry collects Model of '91 revolvers and single shots----lots and lots of single shots. Bottom Line: He has very likely forgotten more than I know about single shots----especially odd-ball single shots----which the charm school graduates will refer to as "evolutionally improved".

Ralph Tremaine

And I have never seen/heard of 2nd Models with hand and bolt slots and no grooves----proving only that I wasn't in the right place at the right time. (I have seen two pin frames otherwise configured exactly as 2nd models which are 1st Models.) Given that there are such 2nd Models, somebody found some otherwise entirely usable frames----and used them. The objective was to build guns, sell 'em, and ship 'em!

 

[S&W ucla]

CROSSV, I don't know who RML was but he had excellent tastes in firearms! (As do YOU!) You definitely need to letter that one. WOW!!

 

[legelegel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9t3CT2OWb4