Almost everything I read advises to sort cases. I have a M&P AR15 and according to the information on the barrel of the weapon it reads .223/5.56 and further reads 1/9 twist rate. After sorting over a thousand rounds, I separated the ones that are specifically labeled .223 Rem. The remainder are labeled LC (Lake City). As yet I have not sub-sorted them by lot numbers. My question is that the cases are not labeled .223 or 5.56. and do I assume since not labeled are they 5.56 or .223 or does it matter? I am not loading for competition and I never load maximum charges.
.223/556 Cases
- Thread starter AtlCapt
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Cdog
Member
If once fired the Lake City will likely need the primer crimp removed before repriming.
Other than that, the Lake City 5.56 brass I have is pretty much the same in weight/wall thickness as most commercial brass.
Other than that, the Lake City 5.56 brass I have is pretty much the same in weight/wall thickness as most commercial brass.
Re-size 'em, trim 'em, remove crimp (if present), reload 'em and shoot 'em.
Ballistic147
Member
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2015
- Messages
- 713
- Reaction score
- 719
I separate the 223 and 5.56 brass and when possible I then sort those by brand. Never got down as far as lot numbers. I do sort out the Prvi Partizan 5.56 (PPU headstamp) as it has been the most difficult to size correctly for me. None are loaded to max and all are used for plinking and/or varmint. They all get sized, trimmed and all the NATO stuff gets the crimp removed. Pay close attention to the crimp as some standard 223 stuff has the primer crimped also.
So far accuracy has been as good or better than factory ammo and in my AR I can't really distinguish any difference between the various brass at all. The biggest difference I've seen so far is between different bullets and even that has been very small.
Sometimes I've had to make slight die adjustments when changing from one brand of brass to another so that's my main reason for sorting.
So far accuracy has been as good or better than factory ammo and in my AR I can't really distinguish any difference between the various brass at all. The biggest difference I've seen so far is between different bullets and even that has been very small.
Sometimes I've had to make slight die adjustments when changing from one brand of brass to another so that's my main reason for sorting.
DWalt
Member
If you want to sort cases, then do it by weight, not headstamp. And trim them all to to the same length.
BlueOvalBandit
Member
Not loading for serious competition or for the purpose of making teeny weeny groups, the only reason I would sort brass is to separate mil from commercial to later remove crimps. After that it really doesn't matter that much IMHO. You can still make vary high quality ammo with mixed brass.
Here's a good read for you on brass differences from brands
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com
Here's a good read for you on brass differences from brands
223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com
Guns that are marked ".223/5.56" have a chamber that accepts 5.56 ammo, a longer throat. Guns with ".223" only have the shorter throat, normal with civilian chambered .223 Remington. I have a Handi-Rifle marked .223 and when I fired 5.56 ammo I got pierced primers (way back in the '80s the difference wasn't as well know. I sent the rifle back to the factory, they rebarreled it and suggested .223 only).
That's my experience, but I'm sure someone will reply "I shoot both in my .223 gun with no problems"...
That's my experience, but I'm sure someone will reply "I shoot both in my .223 gun with no problems"...
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 9,329
- Reaction score
- 11,594
I've found most brass to be pretty close in weight, but recently weighed brass that was about 5% heavier than everything else. I discarded it; it had a head stamp of "IMI" or something similar. I would be hesitant to use the same loads I use in other brass in the heavier cases.
Thanks so much. Your comments have been most helpful. Pretty new at rifle reloading. I am just building a supply of general purpose ammunition in .223, 7.62x51, 30-06, 300 Win Mag. I will get into loading competition ammunition this winter for matches at my gun club.
Thanks again
Thanks again
Vortec MAX
Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2014
- Messages
- 447
- Reaction score
- 254
You can send your IMI brass to me. That is very good brass. I buy a lot of IMI ammo because it is more consistent and accurate than LC ammo.
Mike
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 9,329
- Reaction score
- 11,594
I'm not questioning the quality of the IMI cases. I only removed it because it was so much heavier than the majority of my brass. It was range pick-up stuff and I doubt I had more than thirty cases for the scrap pile.
ChiefStealth
US Veteran
If loading up to near max for 5.56 specs, I would use only 5.56 brass. Therefore, I would separate brass. If loading to .223 specs, no need to separate. Either type will be just fine at .223 pressure.
da gimp
Member
Sir I urge you to purchase a Dillon Super Swager primer pocket swaging tool, that safely removes the crimp found on military surplus brass, without removing any metal.
There is also a tool (not the Dillon) that is placed on an electric drill that literally cuts away the crimp.... but it is easy to remove too much metal from the primer pocket using that type of setup.
A friend was a USN pilot flying off the USS Enterprise back in the 1980's, and was home on leave & went shooting with us. His uncle had used one of the electric drill tools to remove his crimps... and one of the primers let go when Mike (the pilot) was shooting.. parts of the primer, gas came back thru the charging handle on the AR 15... going into the white part of his eye. The rest went down thru the magazine... blowing the floor plate of it off.
Mike was very lucky, he suffered no permanent injury to his eye...which would have ended his military career... Using one of the drill set up tools is just too dangerous. The Dillon Super Swager, is very fast to use, doesn't cost that much & comes with both posts needed to do both small primer pockets & large for all military brass , with the exception of .50BMG.. I do not believe it can do those, but ask Dillon, they might have an adapter that will work.
The IMI brass is ammo brass from our much beloved ally and neighbor Canada... I've found their late 1960's, early 1970's 7.62 NATO brass to be harder to resize correctly and often splits after 1 reload when both the initial load & 1 reload were fired thru a HK 91.
There is also a tool (not the Dillon) that is placed on an electric drill that literally cuts away the crimp.... but it is easy to remove too much metal from the primer pocket using that type of setup.
A friend was a USN pilot flying off the USS Enterprise back in the 1980's, and was home on leave & went shooting with us. His uncle had used one of the electric drill tools to remove his crimps... and one of the primers let go when Mike (the pilot) was shooting.. parts of the primer, gas came back thru the charging handle on the AR 15... going into the white part of his eye. The rest went down thru the magazine... blowing the floor plate of it off.
Mike was very lucky, he suffered no permanent injury to his eye...which would have ended his military career... Using one of the drill set up tools is just too dangerous. The Dillon Super Swager, is very fast to use, doesn't cost that much & comes with both posts needed to do both small primer pockets & large for all military brass , with the exception of .50BMG.. I do not believe it can do those, but ask Dillon, they might have an adapter that will work.
The IMI brass is ammo brass from our much beloved ally and neighbor Canada... I've found their late 1960's, early 1970's 7.62 NATO brass to be harder to resize correctly and often splits after 1 reload when both the initial load & 1 reload were fired thru a HK 91.
Moe Mentum
Member
The only reason I sort brass is because the military brass has a crimp that I have to remove, other than that its all the same to me.
When I live in SD I'd buy a significant amount of Black Hills Ammunition's blue box remanufactured ammo as well as their white box factory seconds.
In my varmint AR it would produce sub MOA accuracy or better with a 52 gr match bullet, and BHA did not sort cases, mixing military and commercial brass.
In my own hand loading I don't sort by head stamp unless I'm loading for maximum accuracy and then we're talking about a reduction of maybe 1/4 MOA.
I will qualify that and say that this is with LC brass and US made commercial brass. I have heard some reports that some of the european made brass varies a bit and might make a difference. That's not a real surprise as that's common in other calibers as well and in some cases, like the .32 ACP/7.65 Browning the difference between US and European cases can be significant.
In my varmint AR it would produce sub MOA accuracy or better with a 52 gr match bullet, and BHA did not sort cases, mixing military and commercial brass.
In my own hand loading I don't sort by head stamp unless I'm loading for maximum accuracy and then we're talking about a reduction of maybe 1/4 MOA.
I will qualify that and say that this is with LC brass and US made commercial brass. I have heard some reports that some of the european made brass varies a bit and might make a difference. That's not a real surprise as that's common in other calibers as well and in some cases, like the .32 ACP/7.65 Browning the difference between US and European cases can be significant.
BlueOvalBandit
Member
I hate to break it to your friend but if pieces went flying out of the charging handle and the magazine was blown out on an AR, it wasn't because of reaming/beveling/chamfering a primer pocket. It was grossly overloaded. Bolt head fully supports the base of the case, a loose pocket will cause pitting of the bolt face over time or decide to drop a primer in the trigger group on extraction.
On to military brass that's hard to size. Problem with some once fired mil brass is it could have been shot out of a machine gun. Generous chambers = shoulders moved out further = much harder to size. Also means the brass is more likely to split in fewer loadings from work hardening.
da gimp
Member
The primer was completely blown out of the pocket... Greg, who reloaded the ammo is very meticulous & never goes near max loads... it was the primer letting loose. It was a Colt SP1 AR 15 that had not been modified... count was probably 2000 rds max thru the rifle at the time. none of us use the drill method now... many such cases have been reported. The brass was reloaded thru RCBS dies, the best that I know is he is still using them.
hdwhit
Member
That is good advice. Cartridges originally made for military use will have primers that have been crimped or staked in place and you will need to remove that before you can insert another primer.
You can swage (i.e. press the brass out of the way) or ream (i.e. remove the brass) from the primer pocket. Swaging is probably easier in the long run if you're doing lots of cases, but if you're only doing a few cases, the reamer is cheaper to buy. There is no inherent benefit to either swaging or reaming. Swaging minimally "cold works" the brass and reaming removes some brass from an area of the case that doesn't transmit force to the chamber walls or bolt face because by definition the crimp or the stake is below the level of the case head.
Beyond the primer pocket issue, the only reason for sorting cases is to gather cases of similar characteristics (i.e. wall thickness, internal volume, etc.) together to ensure the reloaded cases are consistent. Shooters going for high accuracy over long distance need this degree of consistency.
If, on the other hand, you're just looking to load up some rounds for hunting deer or varmints at 200 yards or less, none of this is likely to matter to you and once the primer pockets are addressed, you can just treat every case alike.
Get a published reloading manual, follow the procedures it gives and follow the loads it gives and you should be fine. Always remember to start at the minimum load and work your way up.
Finally, I will suggest you take the opinion of anyone who posts on a public forum without explaining the rationale behind their post with a grain of salt. You have no idea whether I am a 16 year old with an overload of testosterone or a 56 year old forensic engineer with four decades of experience. Take everything you read here with a grain of salt and compare it to what you read in the published reloading manuals.
It's one possibility, and probably the most likely if it was once fired brass.
However, in the mid 1980s I bought a large quantity of some new TW73 head stamped brass at a local gun shop. I wasn't smart enough then to ask why the military had surplussed virgin brass in 1973.
On a prairie dog hunt a bit later, I was shooting 55 gr varmint loads in that new brass in my Varmint AR (back in the day we milled the carry handle off of an A1, then D&Td it for a weaver rail, just in case you wondered where the Picatinny rail idea came from). A couple hundred rounds into the day one of the shots sounded funny and I noticed the contents of the magazine were rolling around in the dirt under me (bipod prone position) along with the follower and spring. I noted that the portion of the 20 round magazine that was below the magazine well was blown out to the diameter and shape of a beer can.
The bolt would not retract, and on further inspection I noted the bottom of the bolt carrier had cracked at the front with the piece bent 90 degrees down into the magazine well. Which is a pretty effective way to lock up the carrier on an AR.
It took a hammer and punch to drive the bottom of the carrier back into position so that I could retract the bolt. At that point I could also see that 3 of the bolt lugs were basically melted off and 2 of the remaining lugs were cracked. The extractor was gone.
The head of the cartridge case had completely failed and was also missing over about 60% of it's diameter.
The damage however was minimal as I got a new bolt carrier and bolt assembly for around $100, checked the head space and put it back to work, accurate and reliable as ever.
I was impressed with the AR-15's ability to handle a massive case head failure.
I didn't note any gas or pieces of metal coming back through the charging handle, but then I was wearing shooting glasses - even in the mid 1980s that was a more or less expected safety measure.
In your friend's case, I doubt the piece of metal came that way, but rather was probably blown that direction by the escaping gas outside the ejection port, or was deflected off the receiver or port cover.
Eventually, after some extensive research I found that the US military had surplussed a number of lots of virgin TW73 brass for scrap due to concerns that some of it may not have been properly annealed, with the result that the case heads were soft.
Some of this new brass apparently found it's way into the market as reloading components and I got one of those soft headed cases and it was in no way strong enough to contain 50,000 PSI.
gregintenn
Member
Aside from a small, segregated lot of Remington brass I keep aside for accuracy loads, I remove the primer crimp from the Lake City brass, and pitch it in a bucket with all other assorted 223 brass. I load and shoot the mixed cases interchangeably, and get very good 100 yard groups with this procedure.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. I am a Dillon owner and fan. That being said, there are other options to purchasing the Dillon Super Swager tool for over a hundred dollars. Here are a couple of options: RCBS Primer Pocket Swager Combo 2
I have used this combo (deburring tool holder and deburring tool) to remove military brass primer crimps, with excellent results. That way I can use the deburring tool for 3 things instead of just two. I chuck it in a bench mounted drill press.
Sinclair/L.E. Wilson Deburring Tool Package : SINCLAIR CASE MOUTH DEBURRING TOOL HOLDER | Brownells
I have used this combo (deburring tool holder and deburring tool) to remove military brass primer crimps, with excellent results. That way I can use the deburring tool for 3 things instead of just two. I chuck it in a bench mounted drill press.
Sinclair/L.E. Wilson Deburring Tool Package : SINCLAIR CASE MOUTH DEBURRING TOOL HOLDER | Brownells
Sportsdad60
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2016
- Messages
- 137
- Reaction score
- 417
My method for once-shot LC brass. (Not including deburring)
Approx 300 per hour.
[ame]https://vimeo.com/150221979[/ame]
Approx 300 per hour.
[ame]https://vimeo.com/150221979[/ame]
Last edited:
gregintenn
Member
I just stick a chamfering tool in the primer pocket and give it a twist.
Mad_Charlie
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2015
- Messages
- 157
- Reaction score
- 86
IMI (Israeli Military Industries) cases are some of the BEST cases out there!
IVI (canadian) tends to run heavier than most. (slightly).
All you have to do is work up your load.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Locked
