2nd Model .44/.455 HE in .45 Colt (updated Jinks letter)

[M_conrad_0311]

I was happy to purchase this grand ole shooter from Markgtp out of the classifieds. Mark described the .45 exactly as it was received. Thank you Mark!

I have always wanted a factory pre-war S&W in .45 Colt. I will definitely be sending off for a letter on this one. The book lists the possibility of its authenticity under the Second Model .44 HE section, but it seems like it is more related to the Second Model HE .455 variant. Is there a proper title? I am under the assumption that this was one of the 700 non-marked commercial .45 Colt variety that shipped to Canada.

The barrel, cylinder, and frame serial numbers all match. The side plate has had a history of corrosion that was attempted to be polished out and blued over. I believe the rest of the revolver to have the original finish. What are your thoughts on the likelihood of an authentic factory .45 Colt?

 

[handejector]

That number is not a 44 series number. It is too high, so your gun is numbered in the 455 series. The chambers do not look altered, so you may well have an original 45 Colt. Definitely get a letter. Supply ALL data you know on the gun. A clearer pic of the cyl after a good cleaning would be advised.

 

[M_conrad_0311]

Supply ALL data you know on the gun. A clearer pic of the cyl after a good cleaning would be advised.

Thank you for the information Lee. I just picked it up from my FFL and had to run directly into work. I will definitely supply much better photos after a thorough cleaning and lube.

 

[steelslaver]

It would also be nice to see a picture of the recoil shield. As the cylinder is not partially recessed, nor shaved as show by the serial number remaining on the cylinder, the other usual method of getting the 45 colt rim to work in an original 455 is for recoil shield to have been shaved. The 45 colt has a .060 thick rim and the 455 is appox .040

Although there is one other way I have thought of. That is to fit the 455 cylinder with a 44 extractor that has been modified to accept the larger OD case. This would cause the 455 cylinder to have the correct head space for 45 colt This would of course move the cylinder forward about.020. and would necessitate shimming or stretching the yoke tube and trimming the barrel extension by approx .020 so the cylinder would have the proper clearance on the barrel. If the yoke was replaced with a 44 yoke that would cure the need to shim the original yoke.

I am NOT saying any of this was done, but it with the increased value of a original early 45 colt, it is something to think about as it would make an original looking 45 colt.

 

[M_conrad_0311]

Steelslaver, those are all great points to investigate. The subject revolver is still not properly cleaned, but here are some additional and better photos to help provide better assessment.

 

[handejector]

It would also be nice to see a picture of the recoil shield. As the cylinder is not partially recessed, nor shaved as show by the serial number remaining on the cylinder, the other usual method of getting the 45 colt rim to work in an original 455 is for recoil shield to have been shaved. The 45 colt has a .060 thick rim and the 455 is appox .040

Although there is one other way I have thought of. That is to fit the 455 cylinder with a 44 extractor that has been modified to accept the larger OD case. This would cause the 455 cylinder to have the correct head space for 45 colt This would of course move the cylinder forward about.020. and would necessitate shimming or stretching the yoke tube and trimming the barrel extension by approx .020 so the cylinder would have the proper clearance on the barrel. If the yoke was replaced with a 44 yoke that would cure the need to shim the original yoke.

I am NOT saying any of this was done, but it with the increased value of a original early 45 colt, it is something to think about as it would make an original looking 45 colt.

All of this would also require a new frame lug or the cyl would slide back and forth when open. The frame lug on this gun looks correct.
The extractor is numbered to the gun and the recoil shield looks unmolested.
I'd still like to see a pic of the clean chambers wiped really clean and dry.

 

[steelslaver]

Ya, the recoil shield is factory. Plus the ratchet piece has the correct number on bottom.

I am now officially jealous.

It isn't hard to change a frame lug. Been there, done that.

I am a big 45 colt fan and am always thinking about how to make them.

 

[M_conrad_0311]

I tried a quick scrub of the cylinder, but it is going to take some lengthy attention to get properly cleaned. I probably need to soak the HE. The bore looks good, It is hard to capture in a photo. Here are some photos with some stag stocks, and another attempt at a better cylinder photo.

 

[steelslaver]

The chambers do not look like they were reamed deeper. I have a 455 TL that was reamed to 45 colt before I got it and I can see a slight differnce in ream marks where the additional depth from 455 to colt. I have also reamed a couple J frame 32 cylinders to 32H&R and a longer new style J frame 32 H&R to 327 and you can see the slight change in reamer pattern.

I think you got the real deal.

 

[M_conrad_0311]

I took the .45 Colt to the range today with a few others. I am sure it will hold a much tighter group then what am now capable of. My poor eyes had a hard time seeing the front sight. It may be time for a new eye Dr visit. I used some 185 grain Cowboy load .45 special bullets that seemed to key-hole pretty bad no matter which revolver they went through. I had some full length 250 grain that worked much better. I definitely need to spend more time with this one.

 

[steelslaver]

looking at your cylinder pictures I am pretty sure it is stock.

I am a 45 colt fan. (in S&W revolvers) I believe that early guns were set up more for .454 bullets and then later .452 became standard. The SAAMI ammo drawings show .456-.006 and the chamber drawings show throats of .452+.0075. Bullets from .450 to .456 and throats from .452 to .4595. That is a lot of deviation. What is else is interesting is they show a groove dia of .451. There is also note on drawing
CHAMBER
UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED
ALL DIA +.004 (0.10)
LENGTH TOL +.015 (0.38)

So they left a lot of room for variation

Interestingly there are about the same variation on the SAAMI 45ACP and auto rim drawings

It is fairly well know in the S&W community that the throats had a lot of variation usually from .454 to .458 prior to midway through production of the 25-5 when S&W went to a standard throat of .452,. I have a factory 25-5 45 colt cylinder in my parts pile and a .457 pin gauge will easily slip in the throats. I replace it with a 44 mag cylinder reamed to 45 colt cylinder, with .452 throats and it is now very accurate.

I also believe most of the 45 colt ammo produced now uses .452 bullets which may well explain some of your accuracy problems. A short soft lead bullet leaving a large throat is probably the worst possible combination.

I got just got a mold for my Ruger Old Army that cast a round nose bullet with a .452 base band then goes to .456. The small base is so it starts square when being rammed into a cap and ball revolver cylinder, but ii would probably work well in a large throat 45 colt. I would sent you some if interested.
Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold (456 Diameter) 220 Grain Round Nose Bullet # 90384

 

[M_conrad_0311]

The Warden came in and announced that I had a mail call from Smith and Wesson. I have been patiently awaiting word on this old beauty. I was pretty sure that it would letter as a Factory Royal Mounted Police version, but I was wrong.

Fortunately, it does letter as a commercial variant of the second Model .455 in .45 Colt caliber, but it was not exported. Well, at least, as far as I can only assume. This old .45 Colt shipped out April 13, 1917 to an individual by the name of Martin Kohn, address unknown? The 45 was sent out in it's current configuration, commercial blue, 6-1/2' barrel, lanyard ring, and gold medallion walnut stocks.
I just thought I would update the post