2nd model American

[iby]

Would a 2nd model American with full nickel finish, (including hammer and trigger guard), ivory grips and nitre blued screws be considered a special order gun?
Letters to Biggs and Spencer Co., Chicago, Ill. 1872
(screws are not mentioned)
Mike

 

[opoefc]

Hard to say with any certainty, but I strongly doubt it. Nickeled hammer & trigger guard plus nitro blued screws are not items the factory would normally furnish. The nickel American models, from the factory, I'm familiar with have the case hardened hammer & TG. and nickeled screws. Also, ivory stocks were usually dealer furnished items, however if they are numbered to the gun, it means they were fitted to the grip frame by either the factory or the dealer. No number usually says" After market." The factory records on the American models are very hard to read and sketchy in what info. can be determined regarding a special order. Ed.

 

[model3sw]

Would a 2nd model American with full nickel finish, (including hammer and trigger guard), ivory grips and nitre blued screws be considered a special order gun?
Letters to Biggs and Spencer Co., Chicago, Ill. 1872
(screws are not mentioned)
Mike

Mike, Post a few sharply focused pictures. I have not ever come across a nickel American with nitre blued screws unless they have been replaced. Finding some with nickeled trigger guards, triggers and hammers is not that unusual on the early Americans, however, we all generally accept it as "refinished" if it has a nickel Trigger Guard, Trigger and / or Hammer.

Side plate seam is the most prominent "tell-tale" of a non-factory or standard refinish. Had it been refinished by S&W or another professional (e.g. Charles Duffy, Dave Chicoine or a number of other early 20th century craftsman) the side plate fit would appear near seamless.

There is another thread about a month or two ago referring to 2nd Model Americans, factory cut for stock. In that thread a reliable post mentions that back in "that" day, S&W was not capable of performing a Nickel finish. Those that wanted nickel were usually sent out by the distributor or dealer. Famously, M.W. Robinson NYC shipped guns are most prevalent in this configuration / condition as they had the best platers and engravers in a small concentrated area of the City. Also, M.W. Robinson did much work, in house.

I would not be the least bit surprised to discover that Chicago had the same quality craftsmen in the City.

But, don't worry ... Ed, Jim, Ralph and the rest of the crew will check in shortly. and Mike Maher will check in too, I hope.

LOL, Ed posted a reply a few minutes before mine.

Here you go, I found the link: Smith Wesson Model 3 American lettered

 

[DesmoEd]

Finding some with nickeled trigger guards, triggers and hammers is not that unusual on the early Americans

I remember reading the same thing, maybe in Pates book.

It must be an early 2nd model to have shipped 1872 and heck Id be glad to have one that didn't ship to ol MW.

 

[rct269]

Ralph ain't gonna hardly check in, 'cause Ralph don't know nuthin' 'bout no 'mericans----on account of 'cause they ain't got no target sights on none of 'em------nohow.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[model3sw]

Mike Maher is one of the "crew" also. Mike and his father were collecting the antique S&Ws from about the 1950s.

 

[iby]

I can only take pics with my phone so they are not great
This old girl has been polished pretty hard but the marks appear to be on top of the finish rather than underneath.
Thanks for your replies.

 

[model3sw]

I can only take pics with my phone so they are not great
This old girl has been polished pretty hard but the marks appear to be on top of the finish rather than underneath.
Thanks for your replies.

That appears to be a very nice, older, refinish. Other than the nickeled hammer, it seem top notch. Lines are still nice, not rounded, and the hammer axis pin has not been sanded flat, etc. The nickeled hammer leads me to believe it was not a S&W factory refinish, however, to be sure:

Remove the stocks to check for a 3 or 4 digit date stamp, some examples as: 3.11 (would be March 1911), or 12.33 (would be December 1933)

Seems very nice as it is, though refinished.

 

[JSR III]

That is very cool looking regardless. For me a lot would depend on the asking price.

Just like with people, we can't all be safe queens.....

 

[iby]

Sal.
There are no S&W refinish markings under the stocks.
only the assembly #.
It may be re-plated but it does not have any tell tales I can see.
The letter reads "a full nickel finish".
The other letters I have for plated guns simply say "nickel finish".
I have seen other #3's in auction catalogues with nickel plated hammers that have been described as "original finish".
I think it is easier to detect a re-finish on a blued gun than a plated one.
Thanks for your replies

 

[model3sw]

IBY: You posted / repled:

"Sal. There are no S&W refinish markings under the stocks.
only the assembly #.
It may be re-plated but it does not have any tell tales I can see.
The letter reads "a full nickel finish".
The other letters I have for plated guns simply say "nickel finish".
I have seen other #3's in auction catalogues with nickel plated hammers that have been described as "original finish".
I think it is easier to detect a re-finish on a blued gun than a plated one.
Thanks for your replies"
>>>>>>>>>

iby,

No one is knocking your 2nd American. I like it. Seems a nice professional refinish, certainly not a Factory S&W refinish, but a fine refinish, none the less. That said, it is still a refinish, but, we'll let Ed Cornett comment further.

According to Roy Jinks, and re-affirmed by Charles Duffy (RIP) master gunsmith, refinish and restoration expert (and well accepted / affirmed by the serious Model 3 collectors) .... "S&W NEVER nickel-ed the hammers." exact quote, verbatim from the mouth of Roy Jinks, and re-affirmed by Charles Duffy (who added "never" to the trigger and trigger guard) on specific and IDENTICAL question when I was shipped a Model 3 American I purchased, that had been represented as 97% "original finish" from a listing in the old printed GunList, in the pre-internet days.

I paid a premium price for it so naturally, I returned it. Back in the pre-internet days there were only printed descriptions in the listings, no pictures. You took a man at his word. This man was from a far rural section of Idaho and not a noted dealer. I sweated the 2 weeks it took to get the returned funds and another 10 days for his personal check to clear after I had sent a Cashier's Check.

Another time, I was not so fortunate.

 

[iby]

Hi Sal.
Didn't think you were knocking.
Of course, I want it to be factory, but it will be what it is.
If you, Roy and the other experts say no factory nickel hammers then I will not represent it as original.
Thanks for the discourse.
Mike

 

[opoefc]

All I can say is that if I owned the gun I could not, in all fairness, represent it as a factory original nickel plated American model, due to the hammer & TG being nickel, etc. I'm not an expert on American model finishes, however I've seen a few over the last 80 yrs. and I don't recall any that could be verified as factory with nickel hammer & TG. Ed.

 

[rct269]

"S&W never nickel-ed the hammers." Some well known S&W gurus are quoted as having said that. One of them then added "triggers" to the never nickel-ed list.

Somewhere along the line I've been cautioned thus: "Context---CONTEXT!!" A word about "context": I don't know the context of these "never nickel-ed" comments. It could be about Americans (about which I've already established I don't know diddly). It could be about S&W----what they never did. If it's about the latter, then we have a problem.

It goes like this: One of those S&W gurus wrote words to this effect: Registered Magnums #4716, 1067, 2161, 4677, and 4893 left Springfield with nickel-ed hammers and triggers.

So it is written-----black ink on white paper!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[model3sw]

"S&W never nickel-ed the hammers." Some well known S&W gurus are quoted as having said that. One of them then added "triggers" to the never nickel-ed list.

Somewhere along the line I've been cautioned thus: "Context---CONTEXT!!" A word about "context": I don't know the context of these "never nickel-ed" comments. It could be about Americans (about which I've already established I don't know diddly). It could be about S&W----what they never did. If it's about the latter, then we have a problem.

It goes like this: One of those S&W gurus wrote words to this effect: Registered Magnums #4716, 1067, 2161, 4677, and 4893 left Springfield with nickel-ed hammers and triggers.

So it is written-----black ink on white paper!!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, Don't hurt yourself but get back into the DeLorean and punch in the year 1872. We were on the specific subject of Americans.
To quote your previous admission: "It could be about Americans (about which I've already established I don't know diddly)" ... I whole heartedly concur. Sal

PS: Don't you own a New Model 3 with Nitre-blue or polished screws or some such ?

 

[rct269]

I think not Nitre-blued, but fire blued (a light, translucent blue), and yes, those on the NM #3 from Duffy are fire blued---as were those on a .44 DA 1st Target that lived here for awhile. Those are the only two I own/owned, and the only two I've seen up close and personal. I've heard tell of the same on several other guns from the same era.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[JSR III]

Registered Magnums #4716, 1067, 2161, 4677, and 4893 left Springfield with nickel-ed hammers and triggers.

I think that some of these discussions need to be framed within their time period. Similar to the recent thread regarding the use of words like stocks, yoke and checking. Once the founders sold out or passed away the use of these terms waned and could no longer be guaranteed as S&W speak. Factory letters say "grips".

Similarly, the founders may have had a strict policy that NO S&W would leave the factory with a nickle hammer, trigger or trigger guard however, that may not have been the case in the 1930's as is evidenced by the quote above.

The other exception to the rule is the fact that it has been stated here on this forum a gazillion times that S&W was in the business to make money and if something was requested and doable and a customer was willing to pay the price asked, S&W was likely to accommodate.

The only fact that can be taken as gospel regarding S&W's is that "we just don't know what we don't know".

 

[model3sw]

One of those S&W gurus wrote words to this effect: Registered Magnums #4716, 1067, 2161, 4677, and 4893 left Springfield with nickel-ed hammers and triggers.

So it is written-----black ink on white paper!!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph, please quote reference of author and publication on the above. I know S&W would do near anything on a special order but you're talking Registered Magnums ... the "pride of the fleet" in pre-war USA. Also, if the S&W had been master engraved by someone outside the factory or a special S&W presentation piece to and Arab Sheikh or some such ... anything is possible.

Not drifting too far off thread ...

I once saw a custom S&W presented to King Hussein of Jordan (The GOOD Hussein). He had a house on Palm Beach Island back in the 1980s and we had a few mutual, collector, friends. I only saw him once, walking through an Antique Gun Show at the Hilton, with an entourage following, here in West Palm Beach circa 1992-3 or so. I was offered one of his profusely engraved (with big dollar claw-mount optics) Mannlicher-Schönauer, hunting rifles. IIRC it was a Jaeger custom. In reflecting back, I'm sorry I passed on the deal.

One of the collector-friends was a retired Suffolk County, NY, retired LEO who continually brought the King's Palm Beach car (of all things a *** Chrysler LeBaron K-car, converible) to my shop for repairs and refinish work.

They thought his house had been bombed because of a mis-identification with the other Hussein (I think his cousin or brother) but the official report was a "gas leak"

King's House in Florida Burns After Blast - NYTimes.com

 

[rct269]

"--------please quote reference of author and publication-------" (of the remarks on RM's with nickeled hammer/triggers), he says. This after I got my cop-out clause concerning context right up front---and he tears me a new one anyway. Hmmmmmm??!!! I guess there ain't no accounting for some folks' savoir faire----or savoir something.

Okay, author and publication the man says. That's a bit of a surprise, considering "pride of the fleet" and all that, but here goes: Author: Roy G. Jinks. Publication: Smith & Wesson Collectors Association Journal (Volume 24, Number 3 & 4, Winter 1989) Title: The Revolver that Changed the Direction of Handgunning. For the benefit of any others not familiar with the be all and end all on RM's, as shocking as that may be, this article (more like a doctoral dissertation) treats with pretty much any and everything to do with Registered Magnums---which is to say if it's not treated therein, it's likely not worth knowing.

If you find yourself in need of documentation/justification in support of any other of my ostensibly inappropriate comments, rest assured they will be forthcoming---and pretty much forthwith too---unless it's something I made up. Then it may take a little longer.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[JSR III]

As an aside to this discussion, one of the other factors to enter the equation is that nickle is a plating process and adds material to the surface of the hammer and trigger. Case hardening is a process using heat and oil and does not add any thickness to the part.

Is it possible that S&W did not want to plate these moving parts as it could possibly interfere with their movement and cause them to bind??? Just a random thought.....

 

[mmaher94087]

I regret the tardy response. I'm away from my reference material so I can only comment (correctly, I hope) and cannot reference the source.

It is my understanding that, at this time (1870's), all plating was subcontracted to an outside source (King?). S&W did not have 100% control of the plating. Therefore, there are examples of nickel hammers, triggers and guards. While not "factory" it was done at the request of S&W but not necessarily with the same parameters as the factory.

 

[rct269]

As an aside to this discussion, one of the other factors to enter the equation is that nickle is a plating process and adds material to the surface of the hammer and trigger. Case hardening is a process using heat and oil and does not add any thickness to the part.

Is it possible that S&W did not want to plate these moving parts as it could possibly interfere with their movement and cause them to bind??? Just a random thought.....

A thought about the random thought: I think it's a lead pipe cinch---and the interference with movement is very tiny---because the movement is very tiny. It's the movement that happens when you pull the trigger---causing it to move away from the hammer---allowing the mainspring to move the hammer forward---allowing the gun to go bang----if it's loaded---or "click" if it isn't. I think interference with any other movement of hammer/trigger is no big deal.

So how do you plate a hammer/trigger without messing with this critical relationship between the two? I don't know---masking tape maybe? Maybe you fix it after it's plated. Maybe you don't fix it---just live with results.

So what are the results? I don't know that either. I know I don't like the results---because they're different from what they're supposed to be---and that difference isn't for the better---at least I think it isn't.

So how much different from what they're supposed to be? It's such as this that makes your hair turn gray---or fall out.

On the other hand, if you don't shoot the gun, maybe it's one of those no harm no foul deals----except for being different.

I know I don't have any such things----never have had, and not likely to have. But if I did, I'd pitch the parts back into the tank, and put it in reverse.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DesmoEd]

Forget about the TG and hammer being nickeled for a second and look at the rest of the gun....I don't see a refinish.

It does look like its been flitzed in recent times but otherwise it looks pretty nice to me.

Anyone else have documentation about the early Americans being fully nickeled?