303 British brass looks strange after firing

[Davinman]

i have a sporterized 303 enfied mk4 no1 savage 2 groove bbl. i have had it for many years, never was able to get it to shoot decent groups. then a few years ago i noticed the brass fired from this gun looked different than it looked going into the gun. it appears to me it may have a modified chamber, also if i neck size only the brass it shoots fantastic w/a few diff loads ive tested in it. also the velocity from these loads is very low compared to book loads, like 3 to 4 hundred fps slower,45gr rl15 should shoot 2700 fps in a 303 but only shoots 2400 in my gun and this gun has a 22" bbl. id expect to see 100 fps diff but it is what it is it shoots great w/once fired brass fire formed from this gun. i have a couple pics attached here to show what im saying, any info on this would be really helpful considering im no expert on the 303 British round. thank you all in advance on any info.

 

[Qball]

Could be an .303 Ackley improved?

 

[Davinman]

indeed, seeing how theres less body taper, & a weatherby type shoulder compared to the factory round, i supposed its some form of improved cartridge. im thinkin? maybe????

 

[M29since14]

This might be of some interest.

http://www.303british.com/id20.html

 

[6string]

That looks a lot like the 303 Epps. I used to see these all the time.
Elwood Epps was a gunsmith from Ontario, Canada. One of his specialties was wildcatting the 303 British. While the 303 was his most common one, he did small and large bores as well, .25 up to .375. By the way, he learned a bit from P.O. Ackley.
One of the big advantages of the Epps cartridges is the reduced body taper that reduces bolt thrust and case stretching, extending brass life.
With the correct reloading dies it should shoot very well. You may want to make a chamber cast. A set of regular 303 dies could be reamed with a chambering reamer.

Hope this helps,
Jim

 

[Texas Star]

In a P-14 rifle, where the stronger action would allow hotter loads, the Epps round makes some sense. But in a Lee action...I'm not sure I see the point, unless to save on brass stretching. And wouldn't it need more powder for comparable factory velocities?

I could easily be missing something. ??

 

[LittleCooner]

My thinking also that it looks just like an Ackley improved case. Of course it could have been improved by someone other that Ackley. Why not just do like we all do with the improved cases and fire form them and neck size only? develop loads back to the original velocity. You are using up a great deal of "power" each time you full length resize and then blow out the case to the improved dimension, along with destroying case life, way to much working of the brass. You just reported it takes 300-400 fps of powder to improve the case from the original 303 chamber to your improved version. I have fireformed a lot of different cases over the years and have shot a lot of them over a chronograph (accuracy stuff). It is interesting to watch the big variation in velocity while fireforming and then watch the same load produce very small difference in fps when they all are fireformed to my chamber. There are companies out there that will create you a die to fit your chamber, but I suggest you research the various improved cases and determine what chamber you really have in that gun.

 

[mxbob]

I have a No1 MK111 that does the same thing. Since I am not a reloader
I have retired the rifle.
Bob Ray 1815

 

[Cyrano]

Somewherer in the dim, dank receses of my memory I remember reading that Great Britain bored out the chamber of some of their rifles to aid extraction in very poor conditions. Someone who knows what they're talking about please comment on this.

 

[Davinman]

Thanks for the info rolling in, its really helping me think it is an Epps or another improved type chamber. After fire forming the standard cases the increased case capacity is lowering my fps readings over the chrony. Loaded neck sized only w/hornady 150gr spire points,and 45gr of rl-15 im getting 2400 fps, & 1/2" - 3/4" all day long. And even at 2400 fps its a very acceptable deer round, it shoots great and im sure at alot less pressure. That should improve case life greatly. Keep the comment comming in, im very interested in what you folks think about this, and thank you all again.

 

[Texas Star]

Somewherer in the dim, dank receses of my memory I remember reading that Great Britain bored out the chamber of some of their rifles to aid extraction in very poor conditions. Someone who knows what they're talking about please comment on this.

You're recalling that many .303's are chambered a little loosely, to avoid battlefield mud and the like making the chamber too tight. They also had to chamber any minor ammo variations made in arsenals in various countries. The result is, some brass may separate from stretching after a few reloads. That wasn't a factor in service, as they weren't reloaders. It could even be a boon if the hostile Afghan and Pathan tribes gathered up the cases and reloaded them, which they did many times. I've even read of them making propellants from camera film!

I think what our OP has is some Improved .303, by Epps or some other gunsmith. He needs to see just what he has and seek reliable loading data for it. Some Canadian member probably has what's needed. Pressure info is vital, if he's to load to full potential. I think I'd try Nosler Partition bullets at full velocity, to ensure better performance on moose or bear. But I don't think Nosler makes .311-.312 bullets, now that I reflect. I like Winchester 180 grain factory loads in .303. Maybe Woodleigh makes controlled expansion .303 bullets. This rifle should stand 180 grain bullets at the 2540 FPS cited by some factories. A P-14 rifle could use heavier loads.

 

[6string]

The Epps Improved 303 has a few benefits going for it. Like I mentioned, it does help minimize excessive case stretching. It also reduces rearward bolt thrust, assuming equal chamber pressures. Also, it gives the reloader a chamber cut to specs kept to tolerances much tighter than the original, thus making it easier to have loading dies more closely matched to the chamber. As mentioned by another member, 303 military chambers can vary quite a bit. Reloading die makers are forced to cut their dies to work towards the smallest chamber specs. It's unfortunate that the OP was not provided with the dies that would have likely been part of the package deal when the chamber was improved.
I had an old catalog for the Epps gun shop from back in the 1960s. It was quite a shop! They listed the ballistics for their improved cartridges. The velocity gain was pretty modest. But that's OK. The other benefits are nice to have.

A chamber cast is really an ideal "next step".

Best regards,
Jim

 

[rwsmith]

Definitely no expert on .303, Epps or Ackley here......

But sizing and blowing out the case repeatedly is going to be very tough on the brass so I'd get somebody that can tell exactly what cartridge it is chambered for so you can get the right die for it. I think Lee has about any of the famous 'improved' dies available. If not, I'll bet Lee or another die manufacturer can make one. A chamber reamer can be bought for about $140 or maybe you or a gunsmith can rent on. I'm not sure about reaming a die if they are made of hardened steel. It might ruin the die and the reamer. I think somebody that can give you the best shot would be better than trying to do it yourself. To stave off work hardening you can anneal the brass, but that won't work as well as having a die that will just size it down enough to fit. That's kinda stinky getting a mil rifle that has a modified chamber.

 

[6string]

This link might be of interest:
Shooting & Reloading the 303 British & 303 Epps

Huntington's (rcbs custom shop) sells 303 Epps dies for $150+!
(assuming that's what you've got!)

Of course, you could go to the source
https://ellwoodepps.com

They still rechamber for the Epps rounds!

Best wishes,
Jim

 

[Davinman]

maybe contacting Ellwood Epps might be a plan. BTW, would it really be necessary to get the Epps die set if im just fire forming the cases? as it goes now im neck sizing the fired brass & reloading it, that seems to be working just fine.

 

[6string]

If you've got a way to neck size without affecting the shoulder or body taper, you're good to go!
By the way, that's another nice benefit of these improved 303 cartridges: they help avoid shoulder set back when resizing. But, if someone adjusts the sizer to not touch the shellholder that works, too.

Epps has a big inventory of Enfield parts, so if you need anything, they're a good source. One very helpful feature of the Lee Enfield bolt is the ability to adjust headspace with different bolt heads.

Best regards,
Jim

 

[Texas Star]

I thought that Ellwood Epps died years ago. Is the firm still active?

What about customs issues? Both the USA and Canada will have laws about gun parts and the like. Customs fees, etc.

You might get lucky. I got in a Swiss Army knife once from the factory and the postman said not to worry about duties or other paperwork.

Of course, the Epps people could furnish reloading data if this is their chamber. Data may vary based on whether the rifle is a SMLE, a No. 4, or a P-14. That's three different levels of action strength. And if a SMLE is Indian-made, that might add other strength factors. I'm really curious what an Improved .303 might achieve in a strong action.

I don't reload, so would have no incentive to re-chamber a good .303 and lose velocity with factory ammo. If I wanted more power than the normal .303, I'd just buy a .30/06, too. With that, I could also use accelerated factory ammo. But I'm sure that a reloader with an improved chamber in a strong .303 could amp up the power at least some.

 

[Davinman]

from what ive seen online today, 2850 fps w/150gr, 2650 fps w/180gr and 2380 fps w/215 gr is all obtainable with the Epps chamber. this is becoming very interesting to me, a nice boost in performance for my mild 303 could be at hand. heres a pic of my 303,it has been sporterized but i like its looks, it seems to be very professionally done. ill get some better pics up later on.

 

[Geo. T.]

My guess

I would go with a new barrel . This is a terrible action so springy that new brass and neck sized your looking at 3 loads . Past that your looking at potential case failure. There are rifles that were rebarreled in 308 but the one that I have seen were not very accurate .

 

[Davinman]

ive been checking cases after each load in this rifle and even after 5 reloads theres no sign of casehead separation. although i do toss the cases after 6 reloads.
Here are a couple more pics of the gun i said id post.