.32-20 nomenclature

[JP@AK]

I recently acquired my third unit from the Hugh Clark collection. It is a .32-20 HE that letters to June 4, 1917. It came with the box and a Jinks letter dated October 2, 1986.

On this Forum we have had long discussions about what these were called back in the day and the box contains some interesting points to consider.

On the end label, it says, "Hand Ejector 32 Winchester." Also, "blued, 4 inch." In a separate label, on the end of the hinged top, is "Square Butt."

Then, pasted on the inside of the hinged top is a paper label in both English and Spanish. The English side is headed, "S&W Hand Ejector Winchester, 4 inch." But the Spanish side says (translated by yours truly), S&W Model .32 Military & Police Winchester" and in parentheses, "square handle" and then "4 inch."

Why it doesn't use the "Military & Police" nomenclature in English, and does say it in Spanish is a mystery to me. But this does show evidence that, at least before WWI, the M&P name attached to the gun.

And before you ask, I have not had a photo session with this revolver yet. When I do, I'll post a pic or two. I suspect you will enjoy seeing the factory pearls that came on the gun.

 

[JP@AK]

Here's something else that I found to be interesting. Roy's letter to Mr. Clark is still in its original envelope. The return address says, "Smith & Wesson A Lear Siegler Company." Of course, I knew of Lear Siegler's brief ownership of the Bangor Punta Company and, thereby, of S&W. But I think this is the first piece of paraphernalia I have owned with that name on it. Rather cool.

 

[quinn]

Jack, I'm holding my breath until your photos are posted so please don't make us wait too long as I was a chain smoker for many years. . This sounds like a truly marvelous acquisition. Congrats!

 

[glowe]

Well, standard thinking is that the 32 Winchester nomenclature went away in 1914 and was replaced by 32 W.C.F. CTG

32-20 Stampings
From 1899 until 1913 - 32 Winchester CTG.
From 1914 until 1922 - 32 W.C.F. CTG
From about 1922-23 until the end of production (1940) - 32-20 CTG.

I am of the belief that dual-language boxes were introduced about 1915 and ran into the mid-1920s. I have a chronology of the K frame boxes attached below. I have a August 1924 32-20 Target that came to me in a 32 W.C.F. box. Of course, by 1924, common wisdom is that by 1923 the gun was supposed to be stamped 32-20.

I am a firm believer that 32 Winchester revolvers do not follow standard thinking about models, boxes, stampings, etc. The factory was probably over-supplied with inventory of both boxes and revolvers by the mid-teens and of course used up all their old boxes as sales came in. My box for a 1924 gun came with the 32 Winchester labels. On the other end of the spectrum, your early 1917 32 W.C.F. came with a 32 Winchester labeled box as well.

So my box and gun seem to fit the K frame box scenario, but, to complicate matters further, there is no readable serial number on my box, how about yours?

 

[JP@AK]

Gary

My post had nothing whatsoever to do with the barrel stamp. Yes, it says W.C.F., which was normal from roughly 1913 - 1922. I am thoroughly familiar with that change sequence. The final change seems to have occurred in May, 1922, but as always there can be some flexibility as to when the actual changes take place.

My point had only to do with the inside label's reference to M&P. This seems to help settle the matter of whether the .32-20 was ever referred to by the factory as an M&P.

BTW nice target model!

As far as a serial number on the bottom, the answer is no. But the bottom is badly scuffed up, so my thought is the number was probably there at one time but is no longer visible.

 

[JP@AK]

From about 1922-23 until the end of production (1940) - 32-20 CTG.

Production actually ended in 1929-30. They sold them out of inventory for the next ten years. It remained in the catalog until 1940.

 

[Absalom]

I don't think the caliber nomenclature is the primary issue here, but what the gun was called.

We have or had a member, I don't recall who, who was adamant that the .32-20 K-frame should properly NOT be called a Military & Police, but a Winchester Model.

Of course, that cause is somewhat bolstered by the organizational structure of the pre-model chapter in the SCSW, which is sorted by caliber ascending and thus has the .32 listed as a separate model before the .38.

But all contemporary sources, factory and retailers catalogs, treat this as one model in two different calibers.

 

[Absalom]

I recently acquired my third unit from the Hugh Clark collection. It is a .32-20 HE that letters to June 4, 1917. It came with the box and a Jinks letter dated October 2, 1986.
....

Just curious: What wording does the letter use?

I just checked mine. I used to have a Model 1902 1st change from 1904 which Roy lettered as a .38 Military & Police.

But as you can see below, the Military & Police does not appear in the letter for my .32-20 from 1913.

 

[glowe]

Well Jack, do I need to apologize for my post?

 

[JP@AK]

Well Jack, do I need to apologize for my post?

No. Not at all. I just wanted to set the record straight.

Besides, you provided some useful information.

Thank you!

 

[JP@AK]

Just curious: What wording does the letter use?

The 1986 Jinks letter uses .32/20 Hand Ejector in each of the first three paragraphs. But in the second and third paragraphs, Roy refers to it as a .32/20 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 Fourth Change (using Roper's criteria). Nowhere does it say M&P.

I also have a letter on a Model of 1899 .32-20. That one shipped on April 1, 1902. Roy calls it a .32/20 Hand Ejector twice in the letter. No reference to M&P. That letter was issued in 1983.

Another lettered .32-20 that shipped on April 24, 1907, also refers to it as a .32/20 Hand Ejector thrice. Again, in the second and third paragraphs, he calls it a .32/20 Hand Ejector Model of 1905 First Change. No reference to M&P. This is a much more recent letter.

Also, my 1902 Target model is lettered (shipped March 15, 1904, and lettered in 2011). In the first paragraph, Roy calls it a .32/20 Hand Ejector. In the third paragraph, he calls it a .32/20 Hand Ejector Model of 1902. In the fourth paragraph, he refers to it more precisely as a .32/20 Hand Ejector Model of 1902 (Second Model) Target. Once again, no reference to M&P.

Those are all of my .32/20 letters. My other .32-20 revolvers have not been lettered.

I hope this helps answer your question, my friend.

 

[Absalom]

Thanks! Looks like Roy has been consistent in only using M&P for the .38 version, not the .32-20.

But from early on the factory catalogs presented the .32 Winchester as simply another chambering in the .38 Military, not a different model.

 

[JP@AK]

It is interesting that the catalog calls it the "Winchester repeating rifle cartridge." It was, of course, available in the Models 1873 and 1892, but it was commonly chambered in the Model 1885 Low Wall. Bert Hartman of the Winchester group told me that more 1885 Low Wall rifles were chambered for the .32-20 than any other cartridge.