.32 top break

[MHF]

I have a 32 double action top break nickel that looks really nice, but when I thumb cock the pistol and put just a little pressure on the back of the hammer it breaks. I think this is a 3rd model double action.
My question and I understand I should post pictures, but is this just a sear problem or is this a design problem with this model?

 

[H Richard]

It is not a design problem, but all early models were made with steel of lesser quality than is available today, and did wear a little faster than todays guns would. It could be some wear from normal use, or it could just be a build up of crud from over 100 years of use. Often a good cleaning may fix the problem.

 

[glowe]

It is not so much a design problem as the fact that the parts in these guns are so darn small. There were over 300,000 made and many function perfectly. They are made up of small parts and the sear engagement is much less robust than larger frame/caliber counterparts, and normal wear and/or abuse is normally the cause of these failures.

Your comment on whether it was "just" a sear problem may turn out to be not so minor. some of these guns were worked on by owners or gunsmiths who did not know what they were doing, so if already butchered, you will need replacement parts. Availability is often an issue, and with the fact that these guns are at least 100 years old, so locating parts that have not already been worked on is a challenge. Check gunpartscorp.com or Jack First for parts and ebay is also a good place to watch.

Lastly, give us the serial numbers if you want to confirm it is a 3rd Model, since you will need to find parts for that model to be sure they will fit. The 3rd Model ran from 22,173 to 43,405. Parts from eariler guns will not work, but parts from 4th Model and 5th Models may work on your revolver.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

If a good cleaning does not help, you may have hammer push off where slight pressure on the hammer drops the sear. This is very dangerous if dropped or shot. I would take it to a qualified gunsmith and have the sear stoned for that sharp edge to hold the hammer, You can ruin the sear if you do not know what you are doing. It is an easy fix but a gunsmith can fix it in about 15 minutes.

Nick

 

[MHF]

Thanks, the last 'smith' in butchered the screw so I'm not optimistic of what I'll find inside. The serial Number is 73XXX. So does that make it a 4th model?

 

[BMur]

Photo of hammer and sear

In my opinion and from my experience repairing these topbreaks? The damage to the sear and teeth on the hammer is the result of operator error. Primarily the “ Lack” of basic maintenance! I swear, sometimes I can actually hear the gun scream “ Thank You Jesus” when I purchase an antique revolver and put a few drops of oil on the mechanism!

Then there is the inevitable “ Dropping” the gun with impact damage. Finally, the simple abuser who knows nothing about guns and plays rapid dry firing games with a gun that hasn’t seen a drop of oil in 100 years!!! I’ve actually witnessed this at gun shows. Asking the seller if the action works,He picks up the gun and dry fires it a dozen times double action. See it works fine!

The hammer dropping off lock-up is a sear issue but can be as simple as the mainspring not adjusted correctly or a weak spring, but likely something is chipped or worn from abuse!

If you remove the side plate and photo the sear and hammer with good close ups? The forum can identify the actual problem.

Murph

 

[merl67]

I have seen more 32 double action ones have this problem than any other S&W topbreak model. I have one that the parts look absolutely pristine, and it has this problem while I do not think it is a design flaw I do think this particular model is more fragile than its larger counterparts the 38, and 44 double action models.

 

[MHF]

Thanks, I'll go in it tomorrow and post pics. It's nice looking gun, probably refinished, but the text is not fuzzy at all and the numbers all match. Box too, with a cotton pouch stiched to the size of the gun. I never saw that before

 

[BMur]

Troubleshooting techniques

Here you go MHF,

1) Starting with photo's 1&2; This should be the same model you have. First of all make sure you check the side plate screw and fit. It must fit very tightly into that pocket to keep the hammer stud steady. That can cause the hammer to jump off of lockup.

2) Next, with the side plate removed and grips removed. Draw the hammer back so it is "between" half-cock and lock up. What you should see is the sear up against the lower section of the hammer with "FORCE". In other words it should be very hard to move the sear with a small screwdriver off the hammer. If it is soft or weak? It's the sear spring. See diagram part number 26. Often that spring will develop a small crack that you can't see unless it's removed. Also, test the hammer stud. It should also be "solid" it must not wobble about. Excessive play in the hammer stud can cause the hammer to jump off lockup.

3) Also, make sure that the main spring screw looks like mine in the photo. All the way in. Also, the angle of the spring should be identical and where the saddle link sits (angle) should also be identical. Any variation of what you see in the photo can cause action issues.

4) These are the most common issues with the double action top breaks. Sometimes you can find a chip off the sear or at the hammer notches? but the vast majority of the time it's one of the issues that I mentioned above.

See photos

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

".. have the sear stoned for that sharp edge..". Yes! A file, even a fine, Jewelers file, will ruin the sear engagement. It must be stoned to engage properly. Otherwise too much material will be removed and that louses up the timing/lockup.

 

[MHF]

This looks like a mess to my untrained eyes.
Smith & Wesson - Big

 

[MHF]

Smith & Wesson - BigSorry for the pics snafu, I'll try another

 

[BMur]

Main spring screw

MHF,
Nice gun. Now look at your main spring screw and then look at mine.
Replacement parts often cause action issues. Try backing off on the main spring screw 1/2 turn. Make sure the saddle link/ main spring does not touch or bind on the hammer.

Murph

 

[MHF]

When in doubt read the directions

Try again, again

 

[opoefc]

S&W trivia: .32 DAs were one of the models that had many problems, probably due to the very small parts requiring delicate assembly to get all things working correctly. I have a sample, ser. # 265845, with seven repair dates stamped on the left grip frame, ranging from Mar. 1911 to Nov. 1912. Yes, that's seven times the gun went back to the factory for repairs! See my S&WCA Journal article , Autumn 1997, " The Smith & Wesson From Hell " The gun was shipped Apr. 23, 1906, to M. Hartley & Co., NYC. Dr. Jink's opinion, in the factory letter, was " The .32DA was a delicate little revolver and it is possible that they made a lemon and could never get it fixed to the owner's satisfaction." Ed.

 

[MHF]

But Murph

You’re telling me the strain screw is wrong?

 

[BMur]

Human error, mechanical apptitude?

There actually is another factor in play here... I'm not making this up. I had a friend who asked me to tune his Colt Lightning revolver. He told me that when he bought it the gun functioned perfectly but then it stopped working.

This guy was amazing. I mean I've never actually met anyone like him before. He had the ability to break just about anything he touched. Really nice guy but don't let him shoot your prize Smith!!

I looked the gun over and all the internal parts were mint and factory original. I cleaned it up some but it didn't need anything. We actually went to the range and shot it with black powder loads. It functioned perfectly for me in both D/A and S/A but as soon as this guy tried to work the action it would jam up on him. I've never seen anything like it before. Some people just do not have any mechanical aptitude. They are somehow able to find any mechanical parts weakness and cause it to fail.

Sort of like my X-wife and our stick shift pickup. She could burn out a clutch faster than I could replace them. I'd watch her drive the truck and she just didn't get it. "Get off the clutch"!!! She was something else.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Did you try adjusting the main spring screw?

It is either the wrong screw or it's been messed with. This is extremely common. People playing with the main spring is about as common as walking the dog. Often they are grinded on also. Is it stuck? Or can you turn it 1/2 turn out? Try it.

The angle on the main spring is monumental on Smith & Wesson Top break double actions. Also Colt Lightnings. If the angle is wrong you can cause the action to bind, lock up to fail, etc.

Murph

 

[MHF]

Mainspring screw, Stuck

Yes it is stuck. I was worried about applying more force.
Also you said something about the sear at half cock. You can push the hammer forward with very little effort, there is no safe spot.
What’s the procedure for further take down?
Do the rules allow me to ask about antique gunsmiths in the ArkLaMiss area?

 

[BMur]

Main spring screw stuck

MHF,
Yeah, that's very common that the screw is stuck. It's also very common that the unqualified operator will punch the main spring out while it's under main spring tension because they can't unscrew or adjust the screw. Then they decide to grind on the tip of the screw instead of having it removed and replaced properly. Which causes action issues to worsen.

So, the best and proper repair here is to have that screw removed and replaced with an original. Or match an original screw as seen in my photo first! DO NOT play with the sear. There is likely no problem with that part but I would have to see it in hand.

What I'm saying about the sear spring strength? If you look at my photo of my gun with the hammer past half cock but not at full lock up? You see the sear is up against the lower hammer under spring tension. At this point you can take a very small screwdriver and gently try to push the sear away from the hammer to see how much tension the sear spring has? If it's easy to push it down and away from the hammer? The sear spring is weak! It should be very hard to push that away from the hammer. That's how you test the sear spring. Simple but 100% reliable test. Often folks will grind on the sear thinking the sear is not catching the hammer notches when it's the spring that's the real problem.

Since the main spring screw is stuck? I would not even bother with the sear or sear spring at this point since most likely its a simple adjustment to the main spring that will solve your problem. There are several ways to remove that screw. I don't see a spec of rust on that gun so I'm of the opinion that someone just torqued down too tight on it. If you are not able I would recommend taking it to a gunsmith in your area and tell him/her the main spring screw is stuck and that the strain screw or main spring adjustment screw was likely replaced or grinded on. That way they focus on that only. Don't mention the sear. Let them focus on the screw replacement first.

Murph