350 Legend Impressive At the Dealer But Moon Clips

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dwever

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This opinion like any opinion won't sit well with all, but I was so impressed running in to a 350 Legend 7 shote X Frame revolver yesterday at Arctic Ammo up here in the Palmer Wasilla Basin, what a well executed beast. Only to agonizingly realize the requirement for moon clips.

Not really interested in mooning and demooning a hunting cartridge, and I would be afraid the long cartridges (see pic) would more frequently deform the clip causing cylinder binding or lock as happened with my 627 and moon clipped .357's. Maybe a longer barreled .460 loaded with lighter .460 Magnum could get you there for medium game.

In the 1980's S&W actually produced a 9mm revolver that didn't require moon clips using design technology similar to what Korth currently uses in it's Mongoose* and Korth Sky Marshall. The S&W then had unreliable extraction** and didn't sell well.

Pictures are a S&W 350 Legend and a Korth Mongoose (Mongoose is a .44 but looks basically the same as a .357 / 9mm Mongoose.

*The Korth Mongoose comes in either .357 or .44, but with the .357 Mongoose you can get a second cylinder that is 9mm and does not require moon clips. The Sky Marshall is designed for the 9mm from the ground up and also doesn't require moon clips.

**I think it was a problem with extraction, I can't remember for sure now.
 

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Are you sure the 350 Legend Smith can only be shot using moon clips?

I’ve never even seen a 350 Legend but I would think you can shoot it with or without moon clips just like the 1917 Smith 45acp.
 
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dwever said:
This opinion like any opinion won't sit well with all, but I was so impressed running in to a 350 Legend 7 shote X Frame revolver yesterday at Arctic Ammo up here in the Palmer Wasilla Basin, what a well executed beast. Only to agonizingly realize the requirement for moon clips.

Not really interested in mooning and demooning a hunting cartridge, and I would be afraid the long cartridges (see pic) would more frequently deform the clip causing cylinder binding or lock as happened with my 627 and moon clipped .357's. Maybe a longer barreled .460 loaded with lighter .460 Magnum could get you there for medium game.

In the 1980's S&W actually produced a 9mm revolver that didn't require moon clips using design technology similar to what Korth currently uses in it's Mongoose* and Korth Sky Marshall. The S&W then had unreliable extraction** and didn't sell well.

Pictures are a S&W 350 Legend and a Korth Mongoose (Mongoose is a .44 but looks basically the same as a .357 / 9mm Mongoose.

*The Korth Mongoose comes in either .357 or .44, but with the .357 Mongoose you can get a second cylinder that is 9mm and does not require moon clips. The Sky Marshall is designed for the 9mm from the ground up and also doesn't require moon clips.

**I think it was a problem with extraction, I can't remember for sure now.
Click to expand...

The S&W 9mm you’re thinking of is probably the K frame Model 547.

I have a 3” version, shown in photos below.

Extraction of the relatively short spent 9mm cases with the full length extractor rod of the 3” is excellent. Better than a similar 3” 38spl or 357 - because of their longer case lengths.

But the spring loaded pawls which allow extraction of the 9mm cases also hinder quick reloading with a speed loader or speed strips. Cases won’t just drop in the charge holes.

547 on left in first photo. Photo of cylinder/charge holes showing pawls.
 

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LOL, 350 legend auto rim. Brass round stock isn't expensive. Making a bunch of rings and soldering them on 350 Legend brass would not be that hard. Be easier to punch the rings out of brass stock. I want a couple of blank X frame cylinders so I can make a 30 and 357 Herret with a change out liners
 
Interesting, the extra long X frame cylinder wasn’t for the more than expected 700 grain loads we see, it was for the 223.
 
About the "requirement" for moon clips, exactly what do you mean?
-Are moon clips required for headspacing reasons? That is, the revolver will misfire w/o moon clips?
Or,
- are the moon clips simply a "requirement" for ease of extraction?
SAAMI specs are that the chamber is cut so headspacing is off of the casemouth. The case length and chamber length are intended to be pretty much the same. There should no need from a purely functional standpoint for moonclips. (See attached diagram)

Also, from personal observation, accuracy becomes mediocre at best when cartridges intended to headspace off of the casemouth are used in firearms not chambered that way.

I would guess that anyone thinking of purchasing one of these new revolvers would want to know the answer.

PS: Maybe S&W should market these with an optional 357 Maximum cylinder (properly chambered, please!)?
I'm sure lots of folks here would gladly pay the extra couple hundred bucks!!
 

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I don’t understand an aversion to using moonclips for hunting (or self defense). I’ve had every .44 I’ve regularly carried for guiding machined for moonclips for the past 20+ years. They’re terriffic for quick loading and unloading. Much better than speed loaders (unloading into a speed loader is a pain). And it’s really convenient – and quick - to carry a few extra loaded moonclips for backup ammo. Highly recommended for hunting.
 
I’ve never had issues with moon clips in revolvers. Far faster to reload with them then speedloaders. Some clips might be a bit more fragile then others, but there are good ones out there that seem pretty indestructible.

Check the numbers, the 350 legend has more velocity, more energy, working pressure, etc then the maximum ever had. It had a bad rep for the flame cutting issues, but that was probably due to the propellants of that time. That and people trying to hot rod the maximum and making it into something that it could never be.

Too big of a revolver for the wife to want, but she loves the caliber in a rifle. 4 shells for 4 deer in the last 3 years. 3 of those deer had broken ribs on the way in, and on the way out, no bullets recovered. This year we finally recovered the bullet under the hide. Retained 120 grains out of a 150 grain bullet. The farthest went 30 yards, the other three were dead in place. Handloader did an article about the 350 legend with 200 grain 35 Remington bullets. Sounds like a good winter project to me. She does have a hankering to go bear hunting now.

Regards, Rick Gibbs
 
I've shot mine both with and w/o the moon clips, no issues.
 
malph said:
I'm waiting for the .350 Legand Auto Rim.
Click to expand...

That would be called the 357 Remington Maximum. It's an incredibly popular round for those who are like me, stuck in straight walled pistol cartridges for deer hunting in Iowa.

My custom Dave White CVA Apex and my brothers T/C Contender will shoot a 150gr CT Raptor ER bullet at 2450fps.
I'm sure you could get some 357 Max brass and load it up to shoot in your S&W revolver.

trqnBkO.jpg
 
Why do you need to worry about a reloading a hunting weapon that holds 7 rounds? If you miss 7 times you shouldn't have fired the first one.

You could find a piece of 2" PVC, put a cap on one end and slide your loaded clips in it to protect them.

But any way, here is a thought. Why not just buy a bunch of E clips in a size that would snap in the extractor cuts. McMaster-Carr shows 7/16 (.4375) OD clips that are .035 thick. and with an ID of .343

You should be able to snap them right on the base of any round using a .223 parent case and and give the extractor something to grab. 1 round clips if you will. 100 for $12. They would be easy to pop off with a small screwdriver and no harder to put on than loading the round in a clip
VfYdZDF.png


You other option would be to modify a bunch of 30-30 cases. The are .032 to large at base, but with hydraulics you could push on in a die and back out.

Or in the 60s the Aussies had a rimmed 222 case. If you found some of those.
 
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I think 350 legend was purposely designed for the AR. Hence the rimless case. I believe it has hunting applications in states that don't allow bottle neck cartridges for hunting. That would allow a person to use an AR or even a bolt rifle. I believe Ruger did that.

What it isn't is a good revolver cartridge because it's rimless. That obviously didn't stop S&W though. Moon clips are great for competition and quick reloads against a timer. I'm not seeing the need for hunting. It's a round peg in a square hole.
 
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It seems that .357 Maximum ought to shoot out of a .350 Legend revolver chamber. The main difference is the base diameter of the Legend is 0.011" larger. So if you were to reload the cases, use the .350 Legend dies.
Years ago, I did some experiments with a Moisin Nagant action mounted on an aluminum plate and remotely fired to see how much radial expansion was "too much" for .303 British brass to handle. Altogether uneventful until a .30-30 case was used just to go to a wild extreme. (Base diameter difference between .303 and 7,62x54R is about 0.027". The .30-30 base diameter is 0.065" smaller.)

ETA: In case you think the idea is mad, I know of more than one IHMSA competitor who uses .360 DW cases (brass built like .357 Mag but longer and somewhat more available than .357 Max) to make a rimmed .300 BO equivalent to use in falling block SS pistols.

The old Milsurps.com thread for photos and further details:
Oversized Chamber Experiment
 
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