.357 - 158gr lswc load

[tinkerer]

Have been reloading for a 15+ years.
.357 - 158 lswc - Missouri bullet 18 brinell. Unique powder.
Lee loading manual, 2nd edition lists max load @ 6.8gr.
Newer Lee manual lists max load @ 6.0gr.
Speer manual lists max load @ 6.0gr.
Unique online load data lists max load @ 6.0gr.

Thoughts???

 

[mikld]

Lee uses other's test data, some 2nd edition data may be older. Newer, more accurate pressure measuring resulted in lower load data.

 

[Alk8944]

Well in my old 41st Edition Lyman manual 6.0 grains of Unique was listed s a "moderate" load with a "High Power" maximum of 8.5 grains Bullet was Lyman 357446 at 160 grains.

The old data was safe when published and was used for millions of hand-loaded rounds over the years. That data is just as valid now as when it was first published!

Contrary to what some believe there is no difference in propellants now from what they were when first introduced! An Alliant engineer I spoke with several years ago succinctly stated "If there had been any change we would have called it something else"!

Just for the record, Lyman #41 was published in 1954. It is the first loading manual I ever bought about 1956 or so. Yes, I have more modern manuals, a couple dozen or so, but I don't trust any of them any more than this old Lyman manual, especially Speer #8! Some loads it that manual are downright dangerous.

Most current on-line data from Alliant, Hodgdon, and others is down-right anemic!

 

[rockquarry]

Lee book has some good information and is good for reference, but often, data is from an unknown source, may be old, components are often not identified, etc.

I like to compare several sources, new and old. If you have a solid background in handloading (not a YouTube and Internet education), you know how to do this safely. Read the manuals and learn how to do things the right way; you can't have too many load books.

 

[AJ]

I am seeing the same thing with a 158 grain cast SWC load that I use in my M27-2 3.5 inch. In my Lyman Reloading Handbook No. 47 for 2400 powder with a 158 cast lead bullet it says use between 11.4 to 15.5 grains of powder. I use 14.4 grains and get good results (see attached target). I checked this with a computer program called One Load. It tells me it is a dangerously high load. I looked at other manuals and their loadings are the same as the Lyman 47. Guess the Lawyers are in the picture now and suggesting lighter loads.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Back in my reloading days a 158 SWC over 13.5 grains of 2400 was the "standard" load, the equivalent of a 148 gr WC over 2.7 of Bullseye.

 

[rockquarry]

I am seeing the same thing with a 158 grain cast SWC load that I use in my M27-2 3.5 inch. In my Lyman Reloading Handbook No. 47 for 2400 powder with a 158 cast lead bullet it says use between 11.4 to 15.5 grains of powder. I use 14.4 grains and get good results (see attached target). I checked this with a computer program called One Load. It tells me it is a dangerously hit load. I looked at other manuals and their loadings are the same as the Lyman 47. Guess the Lawyers are in the picture now and suggesting lighter loads.

The "lawyer" excuse is often not a valid one, but some read this erroneous "conventional wisdom" and assume it's correct. There are far better and more accurate ways of measuring pressure today than there were some years ago. Many of the loads we relied on for a long time were never pressure-tested until recent times; some were found to be too hot, even potentially dangerous.

It's far better to err on the side of safety and good judgement rather than something with an uninformed, half-witted basis. Just because an alleged Internet crackerjack claims something is safe doesn't mean that it is.

 

[AJ]

The "lawyer" excuse if often not a valid one, but some read this erroneous "conventional wisdom" and assume it's correct. There are far better and more accurate ways of measuring pressure today than there were some years ago. Many of the loads we relied on for a long time were never pressure-tested until recent times; some were found to be too hot, even potentially dangerous.

It's far better to err on the side of safety and good judgement rather than something with an uninformed, half-witted basis. Just because an alleged Internet crackerjack claims something is safe doesn't mean that it is.

Could it be that some of the newer guns will not take the pressures that the N Frames will. So they dumb it down for all?

 

[tops]

Since 1965. 158 gr. SWC, 15 grs. 2400. Not at home and don't have fps but thinking it's over 1400 fps in a 6 in. barrel. Over 1200 with a 2 1/2 in. barrel. Larry

 

[rockquarry]

Could it be that some of the newer guns will not take the pressures that the N Frames will. So they dumb it down for all?

I don't know but you may have a valid point.

 

[AJ]

I don't know but you may have a valid point.

I remember reading somewhere that the Model 19's would not take a steady diet of hotter .357 mag. The thinking was that use .38 Special for target and fun, and use .357 Mag. for duty or self defense. Magnum loads would "loosen" up the gun some. The same thinking would also apply to the J Frames. The big Colts and Rugers would fall in the same category as the N Frame S&W's.

I have shot hotter factory loads in my 27 than the 14.4 of 2400, that I use. All that said for just playing (plinking), I use .38 Special loads.

 

[Forrest r]

IMHO:
It wouldn't bother me in the least to run those cast bullets the op has using 6.8gr of unique.

As others have stated, lee only parrots what it can find for reloading data from multiple sources.

Why "lee", speer & alliant have different (6.0gr)/newer data.

The last of what I consider the great free manuals put out by alliant powder corp. It was printed in 2005

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2005.pdf

Hense the lee 2nd edition parroting alliant with a 357mag/158gr swc/6.8gr of unique load.

The next manual put out by alliant in 2008 lists a "SPEER" 158gr swc lead bullet and a 6.0gr max load of unique.

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2008.pdf

Alliant and speer were and still are owned by the same corporation starting in 2008. Alliant quit using generic bullet data and started using speer bullets for all their data. Why help the opposition out giving everyone data to use the other guys bullets????

The end result is starting in 2008 and to this day alliant uses data for the speer lead swc. The speer lead swc happens to be a soft swaged bullet that can't be driven/pushed hard.

So now speer/alliant/lee uses the soft swaged lead bullet data.

The op has a hard cast 18bhn bullet, not a soft speer swaged lead 7/8bhn bullet.

It has nothing to do with lawyers or old vs new pressure measuring equipment. Alliant simply started testing/using a company owned (speer) soft swaged lead bullet for their data instead of the older (pre-2008) hard cast lead swc data.

That soft speer swaged lead swc simply can't handle the pressures of the max/hot unique 6.8gr loads. Push a soft lead bullet too hard and words like leading, keyholing & patterns instead of groups start becoming more common in the reloaders volcaulary.

 

[rwsmith]

I don't think I have a cast bullet load.....

...but my old Sierra manual loads them HOT! It iists a .38 special 7 gr. of Unique for a 125 grain jacketed bullet. I experimented to some extent with higher loads back in the day, but never really approached the top loads because they were raucous enough and I didn't really need the sturm and drang.

Here's one. A .357 magnum load for a 150 grain JHP bullet is 9 grains of Unique.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Have been reloading for a 15+ years.
.357 - 158 lswc - Missouri bullet 18 brinell. Unique powder.
Lee loading manual, 2nd edition lists max load @ 6.8gr.
Newer Lee manual lists max load @ 6.0gr.
Speer manual lists max load @ 6.0gr.
Unique online load data lists max load @ 6.0gr.

Thoughts???

6.0 grains of Unique is the sweet spot, very accurate for a 158 grain LSWC or a Speer LSWCHP in 357 Magnum brass.

That is the perfect Mid-Range 357 Magnum load.

 

[mtgianni]

If you have an accurate load, don't mess with it until you change lots of powder. When you change lot numbers, as in buy a new container, drop down and work back up. It may make a difference if you're shooting this out of a no-name J frame size or a Ruger Blackhawk.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

My standard loads for .357 mag over the past 30-plus years have used cast 158SWC and cast 150SWC-HP (wheel weight metal with 10% linotype added, estimated BHN 13-14) with 6.5 Unique as my range/practice load and 7.0 Unique for field/hunting. Neither is particularly hot, manageable in K-frames, and both are well within limits according to my Lyman manual. Both have taken mule deer (~200 lbs) with heart-lung shots under 40 yards.

 

[scattershot]

I am seeing the same thing with a 158 grain cast SWC load that I use in my M27-2 3.5 inch. In my Lyman Reloading Handbook No. 47 for 2400 powder with a 158 cast lead bullet it says use between 11.4 to 15.5 grains of powder. I use 14.4 grains and get good results (see attached target). I checked this with a computer program called One Load. It tells me it is a dangerously high load. I looked at other manuals and their loadings are the same as the Lyman 47. Guess the Lawyers are in the picture now and suggesting lighter loads.

Back in the day, 15 grains was considered a standard load for the .357 magnum. Just sayin’.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I will not list the amount of powder but;

with a 6" 357 Magnum and a lead 158 lead wc design bullet,
pushed with Unique power, I can get 1320 fps.

In the old days behind a Speer 160 gr SJSP lead tip bullet.
it took large Nevada Mule deer, inside of 90 yards.

 

[mikld]

I seriously doubt if any gun manufacturer would produce/sell a gun that is not safe with "proof" loads. ("as much as 30% more than industry standards", NRA).

 

[Tim357]

The 6 gr Unique load from Speer has been the same since the 70s. At the time, Speer said that was the greatest velocity with the least leading with their swaged bullets.
Having said that, it's a dandy middle road .357 load with cast boolits