.357 Carbine Velocities

[RatDrall]

I'm seriously thinking about picking up one of Marlin's 1894C carbines now that they are available in stainless steel.

How much of a velocity increase is there shooting different weight .357 and .38 special ammunition?

Does the added velocity cause hollow points, which are designed to work optimally at a certain velocity range, to fragment or otherwise fail?

Anyone know if 158grain LHP+P works in these guns, and how fast it is?

Thanks

 

[stiab]

.How much of a velocity increase is there shooting different weight .357 and .38 special ammunition?

I don't specifically know the answer to your question, but I do know that in mine the .38 Specials shoots to a much different point of aim at 50 yards than do the .357 magnums. So much so that you cannot plink with them interchangeablily. With a Lyman aperture sight you can easily pick off cans at that distance with the magnums, but the .38 Specials will fall way short.

These guns are pretty hard to find. Even through Marlin (and others) are making them, according to a recent thread on another forum they are in very short supply, and commanding high prices when found used at gun shows.

 

[Chromedhearts]

I have one in blue, and found mine really likes the old standard 158grn, .357 magnums, with a simi-jacketed soft point. Does not group as good with the lighter bullets like 125grn. I have not, but want to try the "Cowboy" loaded .357s, and some heavier .357s like the 180grn stuff. I haven't shot enough .38 special to have much thought on them, but suspect what stiab says would be typical.

 

[5906fan]

a shooting buddy has one of those but blued, I've shot some at steel disks @ 100 yds, don't know the particulars of the load except they were sjfp but what a 'whack' on the 6" disks. his handloads and knowing the loads in his Ruger they very likely were at max data.

 

[Erich]

This thread at Oldfella/Pete's forum may be of interest:

Pro-Gun Forums - Lots of handloading and talking to you all . . .

I get just over 2k fps with max Lil' Gun 158-gr handloads using Jessie's Tennessee Valley Bullets out of the 20" carbine; this same load does just under 1400 fps from my 4" GP-100. Lil' Gun is a powder that definitely prefers a longer barrel, but you get quite a decent bump in velocity with virtually any .357 Mag load. .38 Specials don't do as much improvement in velocity (you'll see 900 fps loads become 1100 fps loads from the carbine) but they are so pleasant to shoot that it's amazing. Seriously, recoil from decently hot .38s out of my Navy Arms short rifle feels like .22 LR from my 597.

 

[redhawk444]

I have chronographed the 44 Mg. in 3 different rifles and in general they pick up about 300 fps when going from a 7-1/2" bbl to an 18-20 inch bbl.

I would expect the .357 in a rifle to give pretty much the same results....ie a pickup of about 300 fps.

 

[Texas1941]

I have chronographed the 44 Mg. in 3 different rifles and in general they pick up about 300 fps when going from a 7-1/2" bbl to an 18-20 inch bbl.

I would expect the .357 in a rifle to give pretty much the same results....ie a pickup of about 300 fps.

Probably a good rule of thumb. I've never chronographed any factory ammo through my '94C, but the 3-4 handloads I use show about 400-450 fps difference between a 18" rifle bbl and my 5" 686+. I can say from experience that any light weight jacketed HP or SP will likely fall apart on large game when fired from a carbine length bbl. I use my Marlin mainly for hogs, and there the hard cast 158 gr swc seems to work best.

In a couple of Internet sites, I've seen statements to the effect that all 1894C Marlins have conventional rifling. But some of the early ones have microgroove bbls. While these are not hopeless with cast bullets, the one I had showed a real preference for jacketed bullets. Might be something to keep in mind if you buy used.

One thing I forgot: there seems to some gun to gun variation in feeding. As far as I can tell, they are all sensitive to OAL. Some of them can be cranky about bullet shape. My current one feeds true SWC shapes with no problem. The last one would'nt feed them at all. If SWCs don't work, the lead flat points will.

 

[38-44HD45]

WARNING: DO NOT duplicate what you see here unless you are an experienced reloader and are willing to accept all risks. The loads mentioned here are not found in any manual. I'm getting no pressure signs in my gun, but yours might just blow up!

I've just recently been developing a load for my 18 1/2" Marlin 1894C .357. I've not chronoed factory ammo, as my goal is a hog-whacking load with the Cast Performance Heat Treated 187gr. GC LBT bullet. I'm using 296 over WW small rifle primers, but will be switching to Federal small pistol magnums, and am still in the early stages of load development.

As for the question about bullets breaking up prematurely when driven beyond their design limits, yes they can, and do. I've done a fair amount of testing with Hornady XTP bullets in .451 persuasion. What I've found is that it is nearly impossible to drive them fast enough for them to expand reliably (in water) from a .45 ACP, at least in the 200gr. and 230gr. weights. With 185s, loaded to +P levels, they'll expand most of the time from a 5" barrel. In my .460 Rowland, all weights fragment at maximum velocities. Somewhere in between, I guess there's a range where they expand but don't fragment. In some applications, fragmentation is good.

I don't know why you'd want to use .38s, LHP+P or otherwise, except for play. You gain a round of capacity, but you lose some reliability in feeding, and with a .38, not much velocity is gained with the long barrel. .357s gain lots more, and feed more reliably.

 

[reuters]

[lang=sv]Hi,
Magtech factory 158 JHP cronographed to average 1606 fps out of my 1894CS almost 300 fps faster than out of my 6" Ruger GP 100.

Handload 105 gr. FMJ 11,7 gr of Vihtavouri N350 cronographed to 2004 fps, pretty impressive, caution, maximum but no signs of excesssive pressure in my gun, still would not use this load in any of my handguns.

Yes light bullets especially JHP do indeed fragment, this to be expected since they travel substantially faster than designed to.

Btw, my Marlin groups horrible with all types of ammo, 38-357 factory-handloads, light-heavy bullets, jacketed bullets- cast-cast with gascheck. Worst case 10" vertical stringing at 50 yds and average 5-6 inch spread at the same distance, this in spite of a nice scope. With a good rest, I group better with my wheeelguns. Anybody that got an idea what's wrong? One shooting budddy told me that it may group better without scope due to barrels wandering off at heat up and no correlation betweeen rear-front sight as with the regular iron sights and the steel bands fixed to the barrel may make this problem worse compared to a rifle with a free floating barrel. Anybody that got an idea what's wrong with my rifle? Tried a 1894 in 44 Magnum and it shot real well compared to my "scattergun".

Good luck with your gun and reloading and I do indeed hope that you get a better sample than mine.

Svante[/lang]

 

[38-44HD45]

Reuters, you do have a problem. First place I would look is to see if the barrel is badly fouled. Does your gun have the Micro-Groove barrel, or Ballard rifling? Either way, especially if it has shot a bunch of copper jacketed bullets, then lead, it may have serious fouling issues. (If it is a Micro-Groove, it may never group cast bullets well and may lead quickly, and if it is a Ballard, it may like cast much better than jacketed.) Clean it well, using both copper solvent and nitro solvent, as well as a bronze brush. Second (maybe even first) check the scope and mount. Something could be loose. Finally, let someone else shoot it, and see if he can shoot a decent group. If the problem is not a fouled bore, bad scope/mount, or user error, it might need a trip back to Marlin. My Guide Gun and my .357 Model 1894 both group well.

 

[Captain]

In 357 Mag I got differences + 280-380 FPS from a 4" revolver and a 16" barreled carbine.

In 38 Spl, I got from + 340-440 depending on which load I picked using the same guns.

 

[Texas1941]

In 357 Mag I got differences + 280-380 FPS from a 4" revolver and a 16" barreled carbine.

In 38 Spl, I got from + 340-440 depending on which load I picked using the same guns.

I'm sort of a new kid here myself, but welcome to the pool. I'm sure your input will be appreciated.

Since you have the connection, as it were, have you done any velocity comparisons with the Cor Bon 200 gr HC 357? This load looks promising, but due to the resent ammo madness, I've only been able to buy one box, and that's not really enough to test. I like to have samples from at least two lots, if that's possible.

I'm interested in that load because, for one reason or another, every reload I've tried above 168 gr has been unsatisfactory.

Charles

 

[WPWarhawk]

You should see a 400-500 fps increase in velocity with the 357 in a carbine over a 4 inch revolver. You will see max velocity in about 16 inches of barrel, all the powder is burned by then.

Lots of good reading on 357 carbines over at the articles section on Leverguns - An American Heritage

Personally I have better results with 158 to 180 grain bullets in .357 Carbines.

 

[Captain]

I'm sort of a new kid here myself, but welcome to the pool. I'm sure your input will be appreciated.

Since you have the connection, as it were, have you done any velocity comparisons with the Cor Bon 200 gr HC 357? This load looks promising, but due to the resent ammo madness, I've only been able to buy one box, and that's not really enough to test. I like to have samples from at least two lots, if that's possible.

I'm interested in that load because, for one reason or another, every reload I;ve tried above 168 gr has been unsatisfactory.

Charles

The increase with the 200 gr HC load averaged 420 fps from the carbine. That was compared to using it in a 6" revolver.

 

[redhawk444]

[lang=sv]Hi,
Btw, my Marlin groups horrible with all types of ammo, 38-357 factory-handloads, light-heavy bullets, jacketed bullets- cast-cast with gascheck. Worst case 10" vertical stringing at 50 yds and average 5-6 inch spread at the same distance, this in spite of a nice scope. With a good rest, I group better with my wheeelguns. Anybody that got an idea what's wrong? One shooting budddy told me that it may group better without scope due to barrels wandering off at heat up and no correlation betweeen rear-front sight as with the regular iron sights and the steel bands fixed to the barrel may make this problem worse compared to a rifle with a free floating barrel. Anybody that got an idea what's wrong with my rifle? Tried a 1894 in 44 Magnum and it shot real well compared to my "scattergun".

Good luck with your gun and reloading and I do indeed hope that you get a better sample than mine.

Svante[/lang]

My experience with the model 94 in 357 was very similar to yours in terms of accuracy. I couldn't get groups any better than 4" at 50 yds. I have smoothbore shotguns that will shoot slugs better than that.

Unfortunately, the 44 Mg., was about the same. I tried 3 rifles; a Ruger 77/44, a Ruger lever action 44 (i don't recall the nodel number) and the Ruger semi auto in 44 Mg., and all three of them were good for about 7" groups at 100 yds.

I don't know why these guns wouldn't shoot as well as a Redhawk handgun, or even a smoothbore shotgun, but they wouldn't.

I finally got disgusted and gave it up.

 

[reuters]

[langtitle=sv]Thanks for input[/langtitle]

My experience with the model 94 in 357 was very similar to yours in terms of accuracy. I couldn't get groups any better than 4" at 50 yds. I have smoothbore shotguns that will shoot slugs better than that.

Unfortunately, the 44 Mg., was about the same. I tried 3 rifles; a Ruger 77/44, a Ruger lever action 44 (i don't recall the nodel number) and the Ruger semi auto in 44 Mg., and all three of them were good for about 7" groups at 100 yds.

I don't know why these guns wouldn't shoot as well as a Redhawk handgun, or even a smoothbore shotgun, but they wouldn't.

I finally got disgusted and gave it up.

[lang=sv]Thanks for input. Appreciate the reply will give it a second chance through some careful cleaning and if that doesn't help the gun is history. What does it helps if the gun is pretty and it won't hit a barn door!!! Missing soda cans at 25 yds with a scoped rifle, patetic and useless gun, there are probably more accurate sling shots.

Kindest Regards,

Svante[/lang]

 

[reuters]

[langtitle=sv]Thanks for suggestions[/langtitle]

Reuters, you do have a problem. First place I would look is to see if the barrel is badly fouled. Does your gun have the Micro-Groove barrel, or Ballard rifling? Either way, especially if it has shot a bunch of copper jacketed bullets, then lead, it may have serious fouling issues. (If it is a Micro-Groove, it may never group cast bullets well and may lead quickly, and if it is a Ballard, it may like cast much better than jacketed.) Clean it well, using both copper solvent and nitro solvent, as well as a bronze brush. Second (maybe even first) check the scope and mount. Something could be loose. Finally, let someone else shoot it, and see if he can shoot a decent group. If the problem is not a fouled bore, bad scope/mount, or user error, it might need a trip back to Marlin. My Guide Gun and my .357 Model 1894 both group well.

[lang=sv]'

Thanks for taking you time advicing me on this.
It got the Micro rifling looks like a pellet gun rifling even the twist does. I tried the scrubbing to begin with since I once fouled it pretty badly with cast bullets. Used several treatments of snug fitting jag and patch with good ol Hopes # 9 and soaking, followed by a spun SS-wire brush, eventually I got it clean as a whistle, at least I thought so, it was like a mirror. Will repeat the process and even try some Starbore paste and the lead removing cloth, also a regular SS or bronze brush that will reach into the bottom of the rifling. Scope and scope mount are rigidly mounted all screws well tightened, have tested several scopes. Do you think it's worth the hasssle slugging the bore, just to check that it isn't oversize? The chamber is pretty big/loose so maybe tolerances can be on the big side. The worst group that I got was with 3D 140 gr JHP new brass, extreme vertical stringing which is normally a sign of uneven loads. But not even the top shelf Norma factory fodder made much smaller groups. It's a shame if this doesn't help, a long gun with scope that can be outnumbered with a six inch wheel gun with iron sights, really not much to write home about. If this is a frequeent iissue Marlin has to be doing something wrong. My scoped Winchester 9422 shots regular 3/4" groups at 50 yds and it would probably do even better if it wasn't because of me but that's another story.

Thanks again and Kindest Regards,

Svante Reuters[/lang]

 

[38-44HD45]

Well, sounds like you're already on the right track, Svante, but what you say is not encouraging. It sounds like you've gotten the bore nice and clean. Since it is a Micro-Groove barrel, I'd be inclined to forget about cast bullets, though some might disagree with me on that. I've heard too many horror stories about leading and lousy cast bullet accuracy with the Micro-Groove barrels, though I've never owned one. They've gone back to using Ballard-style cut rifling in the later guns, since so many of us like to use cast bullets. Slugging the barrel might be in order, as you suggest. The bore might be oversize. Have you tried any loads with heavy bullets, like 180-grainers?
I have a friend in Wyoming who always beds the barrels of his leverguns, but I've never seen a reason to do so on any of mine. He says it makes worlds of difference in accuracy, but he also always rechambers his .30-30s to .30-30 AI, too. Free-floating the barrel band and bedding it in the handguard might be a good last resort, short of a trip back to Marlin.

Sorry about the thread drift, all. Svante, if you'd like, lets continue this discussion via PMs.

 

[flop-shank]

38-44 and Svante, If you're not already private messaging like crazy, why not start a new thread? I'm enjoying this conversation. I'm finding it quite educational.

 

[bronco45]

OAL of the cartridge is critical on a Marlin and most carbines.

My Marlins in 357 and 44 feed very well as long as you don't go past 1.60 inches overall length.
1600-1700 fps is avg velocity in a carbine; least that's been my experience.