.357 Carbine Velocities

[38-44HD45]

Flop, thanks for the kind words. I've not heard anything else from Svante, but if he starts a new thread, I'll happily participate. Only slightly off-topic, I've not shot my Marlin enough to know exactly how well it groups or what load it shoots best, but smacking 1/2 gal. plastic jugs and beer cans at 75 yards with ghost ring sights has been easy so far, with both factory .357/125 SJHP and my still-under-development 187 gr. GC loads, so it can't be too inaccurate. With that in mind, I'm not sure how much more help I can be with his problems.

Bronco, you are absolutely correct. The first round of 187gr. handload that I put in my carbine hung up on its way out of the mag tube, locking up the carrier. Once I got it out, I reseated the bullet about .010"-.015" deeper, and all was well. With that bullet, one has to seat just as deeply as possible, without going past the crimp groove. Also, while the gun will feed and shoot .38 Special, a slight bobble while cycling the lever, or tilting the gun very slightly to the right, will cause a misfeed.

 

[reuters]

You were 100% right

Reuters, you do have a problem. First place I would look is to see if the barrel is badly fouled. Does your gun have the Micro-Groove barrel, or Ballard rifling? Either way, especially if it has shot a bunch of copper jacketed bullets, then lead, it may have serious fouling issues. (If it is a Micro-Groove, it may never group cast bullets well and may lead quickly, and if it is a Ballard, it may like cast much better than jacketed.) Clean it well, using both copper solvent and nitro solvent, as well as a bronze brush. Second (maybe even first) check the scope and mount. Something could be loose. Finally, let someone else shoot it, and see if he can shoot a decent group. If the problem is not a fouled bore, bad scope/mount, or user error, it might need a trip back to Marlin. My Guide Gun and my .357 Model 1894 both group well.

Thanks 38-44HD45. Saturday I took the gun apart so I could scrub the bore from the chamber end. First a treatment with Shooter's choice, followed by SS-brush. Second SS-brush dipped in Starbore paste, third snug fitting jag with patch soaked in Magnaflux liquid penetrant test cleaner liquid and finally good old Hopes # 9 soaking followed with SS-brush. I thought I had a clean bore but no, no I was indeed wrong. Could only try the gun at 25 meters but it shot real well in spite of no good rest and prone position, best group size approximately 11/4", round nice groups all the time. Would this at later test translate to 50 meter groups at about 2" sitting with a good rest then I am perfectly satisfied. Best groups were obtained with PMC 158 gr JSP (only .356" dia) in PMC brass, CCI SP, loaded with 8,6 gr of Vithavuori 3N37 and with Sellier & Bellot factory fodder 158 JSP which measures .358" dia!!! Also did some reading, like you wrote micro rifling and lead doesn't mix well, understand that the 357 carbine now got Ballard rifling. So for the future I got to stick to jacketed bullets only, no point in inexpensive cast bullets if the carbine shots bad

Thanks again for your experize in this issue, you really gave my Marlin a new life. Have a great day.
Regards
Svante

 

[ENGINE18]

Buffalo Bore has some impressive data with their .357 offerings from an 18.5-inch-barrel Marlin 1894 that got me to thinking I may have to aquire a .357 lever gun!

 

[38-44HD45]

Svante, I am most happy to have helped! As most gunsmiths will tell you, many, many accuracy problems are a result of dirty bores. There are a couple of local young men, twin brothers, who have adopted me as their "Gun Guru." Several months ago, they brought me an Interarms Mk X .30-06, that they said "just would not shoot a group." I asked how they had cleaned it, and they'd never used anything but a Bore Snake. The bore looked like it had had hundreds of black powder loads through it, and had heavy copper fouling, as well. I took me a long time to clean it, but 1.5 minute groups were easy afterward.

Enjoy your carbine!

 

[38-44HD45]

Back on topic, mostly: Yesterday afternoon, I chronoed my WW 296/187gr. GC carbine load, which I worked up to 1914fps. in the Marlin, in a 2 3/4" Ruger Speed Six. It ran 1356fps., with near-nonexistent ES. That should give you a good idea of the gains from very short to carbine barrels, in a load with a slow powder.

Don't try to do this with a jacket bullet, or if you are not an experienced reloader. You'll put your eye out...

 

[Steve C]

How much of a velocity increase is there shooting different weight .357 and .38 special ammunition?

I have chrono'd a few .38 spl and .357 mag loads through my IMI Timberwolf rifle in .357 mag.

From the rifle a .38 spl 158gr LSWC on top of 4.7grs of W231 averaged 1,101 fps. The same load averaged 879 fps from a 4" S&W 66. A 110gr Sierra JHP on top of 7.2grs Unique averaged 1,500 fps from the rifle and 1,207 fps from a 4-5/8" Ruger BH.

A .357 mag 158gr JHP on top of 14.5grs H110 averaged 1,560 fps from the rifle, 1,232 fps from the 4-5/8" Ruger BH, 1,143 fps from a 3.5" S&W 27, 1,336 fps from a 6" Colt Trooper MkIII.

 

[38-44HD45]

Another short chrono session yesterday pm, with the above-described 187gr. GC load. Ran it through my 5" 27-5 and a 6" stainless Security Six.

5" 27-5: Avg. 1442.0 fps., 864 fpe.

6" SS: Avg. 1542.8 fps., 989 fpe.

That's right, folks; almost a half ton of muzzly energetics from the old Ruger!

 

[Erich]

Dang, John!

 

[336A]

Before one starts bashing Micro groove rifling for use with cast bullets one must understand it first. Here is a great article on the suject Marlin's Microgroove Barrels - Glen E. Fryxell

Ironicall Mr. Stanton the renowned .444 Marlin expert suggests usin cast bullets sized to .432". You can view this at his web site under Tech Notes.

 

[NKJ nut]

Another short chrono session yesterday pm, with the above-described 187gr. GC load. Ran it through my 5" 27-5 and a 6" stainless Security Six.

5" 27-5: Avg. 1442.0 fps., 864 fpe.

6" SS: Avg. 1552.8 fps., 989 fpe.

That's right, folks; almost a half ton of muzzly energetics from the old Ruger!

Dang, ain't that something? Your beating the velocities my friend Papa and I got with my 190. And to think that some people believe 1500 fps is unrealistic with a 158 gr. bullet in a .357 revolver and you got there with a much heavier bullet

All it takes is enough of the right kind of wood in the stove

 

[flop-shank]

6" SS: Avg. 1552.8 fps., 989 fpe.

That's right, folks; almost a half ton of muzzly energetics from the old Ruger!

That's very impressive. I was using a jacketed bullet, but that's hot on the heels of the muzzle energy I got with my 5" .44 magnum.

38-44, when I threw the numbers in an online muzzle energy calculator I got 1002 fpe.

 

[Missionary]

Good morning
GENERALLY I find a carbine will give ABOUT 300 fps more than a revolver with the same load.
You must realise a FAST burning powder will not gain as much and Slow burning pistol powders will gain More in a longer barrel = longer POSSIBLE burn time. But longer barrels can also produce more FRICTION and actually SLOW the bullet with the Fast buning powder loads.
Unique is a good average powder. 231 on the fast side. 2400 on the slow end. 296 and H110 will really give a good boost in velocity.

 

[stiab]

You must realise a FAST burning powder will not gain as much and Slow burning pistol powders will gain More in a longer barrel = longer POSSIBLE burn time.

Missionary hit the nail on the head when it comes to this subject. It is best not to generalize, as the specifics vary greatly by load. I have not done the .357 carbine test, but I did the .45acp with 9 versions of factory ammo and one reload comparing a 4" M625 with a Marlin Camp carbine.

The carbine average increases were +60, +80, +80, +122, +139, +166, +191, +194, +222, and +251. If anybody is interested in which loads were which, email me and I'll let you know.

 

[n4zov]

You might find some interesting information about the effect of barrel length on velocity here:

Ballistics by the inch

 

[Faulkner]

Looks like it may become more difficult to get .357 lever carbines with first Winchester and now Marlin going out of production.

 

[jlanecole]

Marlin hasn't said they are going out of production that I know of. They are closing their facility in North Haven, but I'm guessing Remington will just produce them at another factory.

 

[38-44HD45]

That's very impressive. I was using a jacketed bullet, but that's hot on the heels of the muzzle energy I got with my 5" .44 magnum.

38-44, when I threw the numbers in an online muzzle energy calculator I got 1002 fpe.

OOPs! That's because my finger stuttered. The correct velocity is 1542.8, not 1552.8. Sorry! Thanks, Flop.

 

[Faulkner]

Marlin hasn't said they are going out of production that I know of. They are closing their facility in North Haven, but I'm guessing Remington will just produce them at another factory.

Well, I may have to try on one of those new Marlington lever guns when they come off the line.

 

[Erich]

those new Marlington lever guns

Most amusing, Faulkner; I'll have to borrow that.

 

[jlanecole]

Definitely a good one, although I guess they've technically all been 'Marlingtons' since the buyout in 2007. I have two, an 1894 and an 1895. They seem fine to me.