Hannibal Barca
Member
I have a doubt: is still the load of 125 grain SJHP the King of the Hill of the .357 Magnum for defensive purpose?
.357 Magnum 125 grain SJHP
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According to lots of data and firsthand reports, yes. Very loud.
crofoot629
Absent Comrade
No. Double Tap's 125 Grn. SJHP @ 1600 fps out of a 4" gun is The King Of The Hill 
Emory
Emory
OP
Hannibal Barca
Member
No. Double Tap's 125 Grn. SJHP @ 1600 fps out of a 4" gun is The King Of The Hill
Emory
1600 fps !!!!!!!! I have been out of information about calibers for a while, but the last I know they were 1450 fps.
I knew some months ago that there were a school of thought that consider the 158 grains SJHP better for defensive purpose. I was confused about it.
They said the 125 grain load lacks penetration for been considered appropriate for defensive purpose.
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The 125 is surely a firecracker but controlling the recoil is a challenge. As I understand it, the .357 magnum was designed for the 158 grain round. I know both of mine like them and while the velocity is "only" 1250 fps, the ability to make follow up shots is important.
For all the talk of very expensive defensive ammunition, Remington's SJHP with the scalloped jacket is plenty good for me. This fellow's YouTube video is fairly convincing.
.357 Magnum Remington 158 gr SJHP Ammo Test - YouTube
For all the talk of very expensive defensive ammunition, Remington's SJHP with the scalloped jacket is plenty good for me. This fellow's YouTube video is fairly convincing.
.357 Magnum Remington 158 gr SJHP Ammo Test - YouTube
I wo. would suggest checking NIJ stats. Remingtons's 125 gr SJHP was a highly respected round, I do not know any history on double Taps load. 1650 would be interesting, I would have to see it on my chrono, my gun, Be safe,
My wife carries 110 grain SJHP in her 4" 66-3. I'd like to find the ballistics and penetration data on that load.
Before she met me she dated a cop. He recommended that gun and that load. She has no problem with recoil control and follow up shots. In fact she likes to show off for friends when they're at the range with us, shooting their little pea shooters, that includes me with my 442. Kinda makes me feel proud and confident in her ability to handle a firearm.
Lotsa practice, beautiful gun.
Before she met me she dated a cop. He recommended that gun and that load. She has no problem with recoil control and follow up shots. In fact she likes to show off for friends when they're at the range with us, shooting their little pea shooters, that includes me with my 442. Kinda makes me feel proud and confident in her ability to handle a firearm.
Lotsa practice, beautiful gun.
VTXS
US Veteran
I prefer and still use as carry rounds the Speer gold dot and this is why.
We all see and hear the advertisements of the various manufacturers about what their ammunition will do in regards to FPS, penetration, expansion...etc, etc.
Many years ago the challenge by our State Police was to confirm the validity of these claims before purchasing new ammunition for official carry and this is what they found.
Most, if not all of the hollow point ammunition did in fact have an expansion rate, depth of penetration and ability to retain the bulk of the projectiles weight close to the manufacturer's claim when fired into a block of gelatin.
When the tests expanded to firing into objects before striking the gelatin, things became a little more interesting. The following items were placed very close (I cannot remember exact distance) from the Gel.
1. Cotton t-shirt
2. Denim
3. Leather
4. Drywall
5. Vinyl
6. Plastic
This was done with each item and using variations of two. The Speer Gold dot was the only projectile that retained most, if not all its original weight and showed expansion. It turned out that when some of the hollow point ammuntion came into contact with cotton, denim and plastic, that these materials actually filled the nose of the hollow point and basically caused it to act as a FMJ round nose.
One interesting thing I found out that the leather, while cutting down overall penetration, did not appreciably intefer with the nose cavity and most had normal expansion. I thought that of all the material they were using, the leather would do more to upset the dynamics of the round. Denim on the other hand, the one I thought would only be one step up from the cotton shirts, proved to be a pretty tough customer, causing bullet deformation and lack of expansion and break up.
Excuse my rambling, by that's just my 2 cents worth.
We all see and hear the advertisements of the various manufacturers about what their ammunition will do in regards to FPS, penetration, expansion...etc, etc.
Many years ago the challenge by our State Police was to confirm the validity of these claims before purchasing new ammunition for official carry and this is what they found.
Most, if not all of the hollow point ammunition did in fact have an expansion rate, depth of penetration and ability to retain the bulk of the projectiles weight close to the manufacturer's claim when fired into a block of gelatin.
When the tests expanded to firing into objects before striking the gelatin, things became a little more interesting. The following items were placed very close (I cannot remember exact distance) from the Gel.
1. Cotton t-shirt
2. Denim
3. Leather
4. Drywall
5. Vinyl
6. Plastic
This was done with each item and using variations of two. The Speer Gold dot was the only projectile that retained most, if not all its original weight and showed expansion. It turned out that when some of the hollow point ammuntion came into contact with cotton, denim and plastic, that these materials actually filled the nose of the hollow point and basically caused it to act as a FMJ round nose.
One interesting thing I found out that the leather, while cutting down overall penetration, did not appreciably intefer with the nose cavity and most had normal expansion. I thought that of all the material they were using, the leather would do more to upset the dynamics of the round. Denim on the other hand, the one I thought would only be one step up from the cotton shirts, proved to be a pretty tough customer, causing bullet deformation and lack of expansion and break up.
Excuse my rambling, by that's just my 2 cents worth.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
That right there in the video linked to post #5 is why I like a 158gr bullet in the .357 Magnum.
In previous threads where the OP was looking for a cost effective SD round I have recommended Remington ammo with that Rose Peddle bullet and as you see, it works. You don't need expensive designer ammo to be well protected...
In previous threads where the OP was looking for a cost effective SD round I have recommended Remington ammo with that Rose Peddle bullet and as you see, it works. You don't need expensive designer ammo to be well protected...
geoff40
Member
There are several load/caliber combinations breathing down the proverbial neck of the 125 in .357 . Apples to oranges. As Erich stated long ago, shot placement is king. It makes no difference if the slug is going 1600 or 1000 fps.
$45 for a box of 50?!
$45 for a box of 50?!
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Maximumbob54
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I thought Hank was King of the Hill...?
OP
Hannibal Barca
Member
Is this the one you said?
Speer Gold Dot .357 Magnum Ammo Gel Test - YouTube
I hope I´m no breaking the rules of the forum. If I am I ´ll erase this message.
There are several load/caliber combinations breathing down the proverbial neck of the 125 in .357 . Apples to oranges. As Erich stated long ago, shot placement is king. It makes no difference if the slug is going 1600 or 1000 fps.
$45 for a box of 50?!
Shot placement is indeed king.
And they don't cost anywhere near that much when I make them using the same Remington bullet ($18.99/100) over 14.5 grains of Alliant 2400.
VTXS
US Veteran
@Hannibal, thanks for sharing that clip, I believe that same guy did the video in post #5. Yes, that is the Speed Gold Dot I referenced, but not the test of different types of ammunition that was done several years ago, almost 16 years now. (WOW!, has it been that long ago?) Anyway, the tests done involved the Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Black Talon (now the Ranger SXT) and Silver Tip, Remington SJHP and two others I can't remember.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I have a S&W M640 that's scary accurate with 145gr Winchester .345 Magnum ammo. It's all I feed that revolver. When I shoot factory ammo in my 4" M686 it's 158gr Speer Gold Dot .357 Magnum ammo.
Texas Star
US Veteran
We have a member who posts seldom but who was a detective with a Dallas suburban dept. He posted a few months ago that Dallas found the 145 grain Silvertip to be very effective, indeed.
He added that the more common duty load (the lead HP .38), was also usually enough, one officer killing six perps with it from his Model 64. (Four-inch bbl.)
The FBI also issued the 145 grain Silvertip in their .357's.
As to the Double Tap load, I doubt they're getting that velocity from normal revolvers at safe pressures, nor do they need to. The 125 JHP at some 1450 FPS is awesomely effective. But it beats up guns and shooters. I think the 145 grain Silvertip or the better 158 grain JHP loads, esp. the Speer Gold Dot and the Hydra-Shok, are best in .357. The Federal spokesman told me that the 158 Hydra-Shok is also very effective on deer at reasonable ranges. I think he was speaking of heart or lung shots. One shouldn't expect a .357 to do well on a raking shot on deer that needs a rifle or a larger handgun round.
Keep in mind that fixed-sight revolvers are normally regulated for 158 grain bullets, and 125's will often shoot low. And adj. sights need to be set for whichever load you'll use for all needs. Because I somtimes want the penetration of heavier bullets for barriers and for large animals, I load 158's. I have a small supply of 145 Silvertips, but lean a little towad the 158's in case I need to pierce the tough internal chest shield of a wild boar. I guess that's gristle?
The lighter bullets also erode forcing cones faster and in the case of the K-Mags, with the thinner portion at the bottom of the barrel, can crack the forcing cone, esp. if leading has been allowed to accumulate, raising pressures.
I've seen recovered bullet photos from Gold Dot fired into various substances, inc. auto glass, and I think it's a remarkable bullet. It's a bonded design, so jacket and core stay together much better than was once the case with handgun bullets.
From 2.5 and three-inch barrels, the 140-145 grain bullets give best results, I think, often exceeding 1200 FPS, enough for good expansion at reasonable ranges.The 125's are faster, but you get a lot of muzzle blast and other bad side effects.
Note: the Speer Gold Dot 158's I've got have a dimple point, not too deep, and the velocity isn't as high as some other 158's. A Speer spokesman advised me that their 125 grain Gold Dot is better for defense against humans under most conditions. I wish that they'd make a 158 grainer that expanded better, at 1200-1250 FPS. But I guess they engineered that slower load to work when deeper penetration is wanted. They know how that bullet is made and what velocity is needed. I suspect that it'd be pretty effective on bear or cougar in frontal shots. This is not a suggestion to hunt with that or any .357 load, esp. in the case of bear. But sometimes, the bear hunts you! (I think we have very occasional topics about that...Ha, ha!)
He added that the more common duty load (the lead HP .38), was also usually enough, one officer killing six perps with it from his Model 64. (Four-inch bbl.)
The FBI also issued the 145 grain Silvertip in their .357's.
As to the Double Tap load, I doubt they're getting that velocity from normal revolvers at safe pressures, nor do they need to. The 125 JHP at some 1450 FPS is awesomely effective. But it beats up guns and shooters. I think the 145 grain Silvertip or the better 158 grain JHP loads, esp. the Speer Gold Dot and the Hydra-Shok, are best in .357. The Federal spokesman told me that the 158 Hydra-Shok is also very effective on deer at reasonable ranges. I think he was speaking of heart or lung shots. One shouldn't expect a .357 to do well on a raking shot on deer that needs a rifle or a larger handgun round.
Keep in mind that fixed-sight revolvers are normally regulated for 158 grain bullets, and 125's will often shoot low. And adj. sights need to be set for whichever load you'll use for all needs. Because I somtimes want the penetration of heavier bullets for barriers and for large animals, I load 158's. I have a small supply of 145 Silvertips, but lean a little towad the 158's in case I need to pierce the tough internal chest shield of a wild boar. I guess that's gristle?
The lighter bullets also erode forcing cones faster and in the case of the K-Mags, with the thinner portion at the bottom of the barrel, can crack the forcing cone, esp. if leading has been allowed to accumulate, raising pressures.
I've seen recovered bullet photos from Gold Dot fired into various substances, inc. auto glass, and I think it's a remarkable bullet. It's a bonded design, so jacket and core stay together much better than was once the case with handgun bullets.
From 2.5 and three-inch barrels, the 140-145 grain bullets give best results, I think, often exceeding 1200 FPS, enough for good expansion at reasonable ranges.The 125's are faster, but you get a lot of muzzle blast and other bad side effects.
Note: the Speer Gold Dot 158's I've got have a dimple point, not too deep, and the velocity isn't as high as some other 158's. A Speer spokesman advised me that their 125 grain Gold Dot is better for defense against humans under most conditions. I wish that they'd make a 158 grainer that expanded better, at 1200-1250 FPS. But I guess they engineered that slower load to work when deeper penetration is wanted. They know how that bullet is made and what velocity is needed. I suspect that it'd be pretty effective on bear or cougar in frontal shots. This is not a suggestion to hunt with that or any .357 load, esp. in the case of bear. But sometimes, the bear hunts you! (I think we have very occasional topics about that...Ha, ha!)
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Assuming you have a mostly unobstructed frontal shot, it should "do the job." The biggest arguments I've heard against any 125 JHP are a lack of penetration, the possibility of fragmentation, sub-optimal performance through intermediate barriers and ferocious muzzle blast and recoil. Are there "better" choices? Sure, but it depends on what you can handle as an individual. I wouldn't fault anyone who's mastered this particular round and can place their shots accurately. Me personally? I'd much rather stick with the .38 Special for self defense purposes, even out of a revolver chambered for .357 Magnum.
It just so happens that Remington R357M2 and Speer's 158 gr. Gold Dot are two of my favorite .357 Magnum loads. In my experience, both are exceptionally accurate and not terribly unmanagable in service sized revolvers.
$45 for a box of 50?!
Would you rather pay 90 cents per round for something from a major manufacturer with clean burning powders, nickel plated cases and proven bullets or $1.25 or more per round for gosh-gee-whiz boutique ammo loaded with exotic "may or may not work as intended" unobtanium bullets from the likes of Cor-Bon or Tim Sundles?
In terms of value, you can do a LOT worse than Remington's Express line...
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mselvage
Member
Handgun newbie here. A friend of mine (that has a LOT of guns) gave me a S&W model 65-3 .357 Magnum revolver with a 3" barrel (and about 300 .38spcl 'wadcutter' shells). The .38 spcl wadcutters are a piece of cake to shoot compared to the .357 Mags (158gr JHP). And I'm getting all sorts of confused about .357 ammo.
My confusion revolves around the weight of the bullet. Until I read this thread I was under the impression that the lighter bullets yielded less recoil than the heavier bullets (ie 125gr would be less recoil than a 158gr). Now it seems just the opposite is true. With the 158gr I have a tendency to shoot 'high' (over the target at about 35 yards). I have heard that if I go down to about a 140gr or so it should correct this - but the weapon was basically designed for 158gr bullets.
I have also heard that the 110 and 125gr shells CAN crack the loading cone on the K frame (which mine is) - which basically means throw the gun away as they are no longer in production. I don't want to do that.
So, being a relative newbie to Handguns what shells would ya'll recomend for this handgun. I'd like to keep the same weight bullet for both target practice / plinking and home defense.
Also - what kind of accurate range would a 65-3 3" .357 Mag have? I can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn at 35 yards with the 158gr shells. Also - Would the range be different using .38 spcls?
Sorry to sound so ignorant - but I'm trying to learn. I don't have a boat load of money for ammo.
Mike Selvage
Las Vegas, NV.
My confusion revolves around the weight of the bullet. Until I read this thread I was under the impression that the lighter bullets yielded less recoil than the heavier bullets (ie 125gr would be less recoil than a 158gr). Now it seems just the opposite is true. With the 158gr I have a tendency to shoot 'high' (over the target at about 35 yards). I have heard that if I go down to about a 140gr or so it should correct this - but the weapon was basically designed for 158gr bullets.
I have also heard that the 110 and 125gr shells CAN crack the loading cone on the K frame (which mine is) - which basically means throw the gun away as they are no longer in production. I don't want to do that.
So, being a relative newbie to Handguns what shells would ya'll recomend for this handgun. I'd like to keep the same weight bullet for both target practice / plinking and home defense.
Also - what kind of accurate range would a 65-3 3" .357 Mag have? I can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn at 35 yards with the 158gr shells. Also - Would the range be different using .38 spcls?
Sorry to sound so ignorant - but I'm trying to learn. I don't have a boat load of money for ammo.
Mike Selvage
Las Vegas, NV.
CTG_COLLECTOR
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Bottom line: YES.
The .357 Mag 125JHP is still the top performing bullet weight in this caliber.
