357 Magnum & H110 low velocity

[460harry]

I finally got a chronograph and my 357 magnum loads are performing weirdly. 4 inch barrel 686. 158 grain bullet with 17.5 grains of h110 with a small pistol magnum primer = avg of 1,160 fps. I then shot a 180 grain xtp load with 13.5 grains of h110 with the same primer, and averaged 1,029 fps. I was expecting 100 fps more on each. Major fireball on both loads.

I thought maybe the chrono was messed up so i shot some 357 Sig with 9.3 grains of longshot with a 124 grain bullet; average of 1,469 fps, with a max of 1,513. Strong recoil, so i believed that. I dropped doen to 8.3 grains of longshot and got an average of 1,336.

I am guessing that h110 is too slow burning for a 4 inch barrel? Just wondering if anyone else ever had this problem. What is a faster burning 357 powder compared to h110?

 

[Neversink n Klapperthal]

about 45 years ago I was shooting H110 in the 357 with Magnum primers.I forget what bullet weight. About 5% of the time the powder would not ignite,and the force of the primer would leave a bullet in the forcing cone. I made it a habit to take a short rod along with me to the range to knock the stuck bullets out the barrel. Darndest thing.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Who's loading data are you using? The published data generally states MV for a specific barrel length, which may be longer than what you are loading for. For instance, the Hornady manual lists 15.6 grains of H110 pushing a 158 XTP at 1250 fps. Their test barrel is 8" (Colt Python) to achieve that velocity. You would expect about 10-15% reduction in velocity with half that barrel length, depending on powder type. It may indeed be too slow a powder for optimum velocity from a short barrel. Try something like Accurate #9, but work your loads up from a lower powder load and look for pressure signs. Hornady's data shows 11.5 grains of A#9 giving 1200 fps with a 158, but that's also from a 8" barrel. it may be that you can't achieve much more MV with the 4" barrel without over pressure in the cylinder.

What you really want to shoot for (pardon the pun) is a consistent group, which may come with a less-than-maximum powder charge. See what you get at your present loads (which seem pretty hot), and work down to see what it does to your groups.

 

[fredj338]

A chrono is an eye opener for the reloader. The book vel mean nothing, the chrono doesn't lie. Rule of thumb, expect 25-30fps gain or loss per inch of bbl. Just a rule of thumb though, every bbl is diff. I have 5 diff 4" 357mags. All give diff vel with identical loads.

 

[mckenney99]

Also note that from using H110 when working with 41 mags years ago, it is a powder that requires a healthy bullet crimp to build pressure for best results. Any way you cut it, H110 and W296 are known for their fireball and muzzle blast.

 

[460harry]

Who's loading data are you using? The published data generally states MV for a specific barrel length, which may be longer than what you are loading for. For instance, the Hornady manual lists 15.6 grains of H110 pushing a 158 XTP at 1250 fps. Their test barrel is 8" (Colt Python) to achieve that velocity. You would expect about 10-15% reduction in velocity with half that barrel length, depending on powder type. It may indeed be too slow a powder for optimum velocity from a short barrel. Try something like Accurate #9, but work your loads up from a lower powder load and look for pressure signs. Hornady's data shows 11.5 grains of A#9 giving 1200 fps with a 158, but that's also from a 8" barrel. it may be that you can't achieve much more MV with the 4" barrel without over pressure in the cylinder.

What you really want to shoot for (pardon the pun) is a consistent group, which may come with a less-than-maximum powder charge. See what you get at your present loads (which seem pretty hot), and work down to see what it does to your groups.

Lee's load data. I was puzzled because some guys on youtube post pretty high 4 inch velocities with h110 with 125 grain bullets, above 1,600 fps.

But yeah, book velicities are BS, even when adjusted for barrel length. Lee said 9.3 in the 357 Sig would get me 1,429, but it blew past above 1,500.

 

[rockquarry]

For comparison, I used to use 14 grs. H110 / 296, a CCI 500 or CCI-550 and a 160 grain cast SWC (H&G #51 mould). Muzzle velocity in a 6" barrel was a bit over 1100 fps. 12 grs. #2400 would give about the same velocity; both loads were accurate and I think point of impact was the same. A good roll crimp is all that's necessary for reliable ignition with H110/296 in the .357 magnum. The right crimp might require a little experimentation, but it needn't be a hard, bullet-distorting crimp. These only hurt accuracy and offer no advantage.

I no longer load for the .357 magnum, but when I did I finally went with #2400 exclusively. It doesn't have quite the bark and flame of H110 /296.

 

[M29since14]

You might skip the H110 and the magnum primers and try some #2400 instead. I’ve been using #2400 for decades with never a problem or unexpected result. Over the years I’ve noticed a lot of people complaining of various issues with H110 and W296. I’d especially make it a practice to avoid H110 when shooting lightweight bullets in the .357. JMHO.

 

[rwsmith]

There's not that much difference....

For comparison, I used to use 14 grs. H110 / 296, a CCI 500 or CCI-550 and a 160 grain cast SWC (H&G #51 mould). Muzzle velocity in a 6" barrel was a bit over 1100 fps. 12 grs. #2400 would give about the same velocity; both loads were accurate and I think point of impact was the same. A good roll crimp is all that's necessary for reliable ignition with H110/296 in the .357 magnum. The right crimp might require a little experimentation, but it needn't be a hard, bullet-distorting crimp. These only hurt accuracy and offer no advantage.

I no longer load for the .357 magnum, but when I did I finally went with #2400 exclusively. It doesn't have quite the bark and flame of H110 /296.

...in max loads with 2400 vs H110/296 depending on bullet weight.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned is the barrel gap on your revolver.

 

[Abflyboy]

One other thing, test barrels do not have a barrel/cylinder gap which is a huge variable with muzzle velocity in a revolver.

In my experience with several different chronographs and many different loads and different guns, .357 Magnum is somewhat of a weird one.

 

[Sevens]

A chrono is an eye opener for the reloader. The book vel mean nothing, the chrono doesn't lie. Rule of thumb, expect 25-30fps gain or loss per inch of bbl. Just a ruoe of thumb though, every bbl is diff. I have 5 diff 4" 357mags. All give diff vel with identical loads.

I'll disagree vehemently or we could argue specific terms.

Chronos mess up often, far more often chrono users have no idea how much affect the little things they do can goof with the numbers their chrono spits back at them. If you want the chrono to work best, you have to be EXTREMELY consistent with how you hold the firearm, where you send the bullets and how the chrono is placed, and how the light is hitting it.

Aside from the unit itself and how you use it, many handloaders believe THIS bullet and THIS powder at THIS charge weight are the only variables and that's miles from the truth. Differences in cartridge cases, differences in the crimp applied, difference in the ambient temperature that day and a massive difference when two different guns of the same caliber are sending this ammo over the chrono and... the biggest... and where the most folks fail fail fail... is sample size.

Guys load up six shots, fling them over the chrono and come to conclusions and that whole affair should be clearly labeled "amateur conclusions of very little value." A lot of what folks get worked up over would be critically defined as "statistically irrelevant."

Chronographs have a definite value, and way too many handloaders (especially when discussing them in forums) assign far too much value in them. So many folks tell people to get them, even hint that they are a "must own." And for most handloaders, they are nothing more than a toy that ends up opening infinitely more questions than answers.

These are my opinions of course.

 

[Abflyboy]

I'll disagree vehemently or we could argue specific terms.

Chronos mess up often, far more often chrono users have no idea how much affect the little things they do can goof with the numbers their chrono spits back at them. If you want the chrono to work best, you have to be EXTREMELY consistent with how you hold the firearm, where you send the bullets and how the chrono is placed, and how the light is hitting it.

Aside from the unit itself and how you use it, many handloaders believe THIS bullet and THIS powder at THIS charge weight are the only variables and that's miles from the truth. Differences in cartridge cases, differences in the crimp applied, difference in the ambient temperature that day and a massive difference when two different guns of the same caliber are sending this ammo over the chrono and... the biggest... and where the most folks fail fail fail... is sample size.

Guys load up six shots, fling them over the chrono and come to conclusions and that whole affair should be clearly labeled "amateur conclusions of very little value." A lot of what folks get worked up over would be critically defined as "statistically irrelevant."

Chronographs have a definite value, and way too many handloaders (especially when discussing them in forums) assign far too much value in them. So many folks tell people to get them, even hint that they are a "must own." And for most handloaders, they are nothing more than a toy that ends up opening infinitely more questions than answers.

These are my opinions of course.

I absolutely could not agree more with everything stated.

 

[colt_saa]

I finally got a chronograph and my 357 magnum loads are performing weirdly. 4 inch barrel 686. 158 grain bullet with 17.5 grains of h110 with a small pistol magnum primer = avg of 1,160 fps. I then shot a 180 grain xtp load with 13.5 grains of h110 with the same primer, and averaged 1,029 fps. I was expecting 100 fps more on each. Major fireball on both loads.

I thought maybe the chrono was messed up so i shot some 357 Sig with 9.3 grains of longshot with a 124 grain bullet; average of 1,469 fps, with a max of 1,513. Strong recoil, so i believed that. I dropped doen to 8.3 grains of longshot and got an average of 1,336.

I am guessing that h110 is too slow burning for a 4 inch barrel? Just wondering if anyone else ever had this problem. What is a faster burning 357 powder compared to h110?

That does sound a bit slow from your 4" As mentioned make sure you have a BIG crimp on H110 loads. It greatly helps

Looking up stuff that I chronographed, I never did any of my 158 hand loads. However I did clock the older Remington 158s out of my 3 1/2" Model 27 at 1164FPS. Your handload should have been faster than that

As to 125 JHPs? I love the 125 and 21.7 grains of H110. I love that Big Orange Fireball and I love that deep throaty KABOOOOM that H110 creates.

I have probably wasted 100 pounds of H110 in loads like that over the past 3+ decades.

In my firearms this hand load clocked at:

1234 FPS from a Model 640 J-frame
1242 FPS from a 2 1/2" Mag-Na-Ported Model 66
1287 FPS from a 2 1/2" Model 66
1496 FPS from a 5" Model 627
1599 FPS from a 8" Python
1780 FPS from a 10" T/C Contender
2106 FPS from a 18" 1892 Lever gun

These numbers are the average of two 5 shot strings. In many cases these are the average of two 5 shot strings shot across two different Chronographs on different days to try and get a better average (that makes the average of four five shot strings)

 

[mtgianni]

With a new Chrono shoot an arrow or a 22 across it and document the velocity. Write down the 22 you used and save some out of that box just to verify your chrono. If you ever think it is off, change your battery and reuse one of your standards.

 

[stansdds]

My old records show that I worked up a load of 17.5 gr H110 in Remington 357 Magnum brass, 158 gr Nosler JHP, and CCI-550 primers. This was tested in a Dan Wesson 15-2 with an 8 inch barrel. I averaged 1424 fps and the extreme spread was only 35 fps. My notes also indicate slightly sticky extraction.

H110/W296 is a very slow pistol powder. When you see a massive fireball, that's powder that is burning after the bullet has left the muzzle. That's wasted energy.

 

[kreuzlover]

With a new Chrono shoot an arrow or a 22 across it and document the velocity. Write down the 22 you used and save some out of that box just to verify your chrono. If you ever think it is off, change your battery and reuse one of your standards.

That's exactly what Dr. Oehler told me when I bought my first chronograph from him. He said to fire a .22 rifle over the screens and noting the velocity. He said that .22 rimfire ammo is some of the most consistent ammunition made, and is a good way to check your chrono. I chrono my ammo to see what it's doing in MY gun, not yours, or the neighbors. MY gun! And that's what it's all about, checking consistency.

 

[Sevens]

When you see a massive fireball, that's powder that is burning after the bullet has left the muzzle. That's wasted energy.

I have heard this statement many times. I question it. I don't know the answer. I seek the answer and I would like to hear more.

When I read this, my questions look like this:

If H110/W296 tend to give us the very best velocities in .357 Magnum and yet we get a massive fireball, are we to conclude that less of this powder would give us the same velocity with less fireball --OR-- are we saying that there is a better powder out there that will give us this same velocity with no massive fireball?

It is my belief that this powder (H110) will give us pretty much the most velocity we can get out of .357 Magnum. And with that, we are also going to get a massive fireball.

I don't believe the fireball is wasted anything. I don't know how we could harness that fireball and make use of it. I don't think that fireball means we have wasted anything.

I could be wrong! I'd love to learn more.

 

[rockquarry]

I'll disagree vehemently or we could argue specific terms.

Chronos mess up often, far more often chrono users have no idea how much affect the little things they do can goof with the numbers their chrono spits back at them. If you want the chrono to work best, you have to be EXTREMELY consistent with how you hold the firearm, where you send the bullets and how the chrono is placed, and how the light is hitting it.

Aside from the unit itself and how you use it, many handloaders believe THIS bullet and THIS powder at THIS charge weight are the only variables and that's miles from the truth. Differences in cartridge cases, differences in the crimp applied, difference in the ambient temperature that day and a massive difference when two different guns of the same caliber are sending this ammo over the chrono and... the biggest... and where the most folks fail fail fail... is sample size.

Guys load up six shots, fling them over the chrono and come to conclusions and that whole affair should be clearly labeled "amateur conclusions of very little value." A lot of what folks get worked up over would be critically defined as "statistically irrelevant."

Chronographs have a definite value, and way too many handloaders (especially when discussing them in forums) assign far too much value in them. So many folks tell people to get them, even hint that they are a "must own." And for most handloaders, they are nothing more than a toy that ends up opening infinitely more questions than answers.

These are my opinions of course.

(Limited to handgun cartridges for the continuance of this discussion)

After using six chronographs a lot over the last forty years, I'll certainly agree with some of what you stated. However, if you're fine tuning a load and chronograph many groups over many days with varying ambient conditions, you'll get a pretty good feel for what the numbers are and what they should be from here on out. Whether that approach has "statistical" worth, I don't know, but it does have "real" worth.

As for things like brass, use one brass for testing, not mixed range pickup stuff; saves on headaches. Crimp (whatever type you prefer) enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil and don't crimp any more than that, regardless of the powder.

Chronographs are far from toys; they're very useful if you use them in a useful way. The only chronographs I have are now are the Oehler 35P and a LabRadar. Numbers on one unit correspond well with the other. It's been a while since I used anything else, but, as I recall, numbers on the other four machines corresponded well with what I'm getting on the current ones. All chronographs have quirks, but I've never had one that "messed up often".

 

[Sevens]

Yes! Yes! Yes! If you take a LARGE sample size and if you have four decades behind a chrono and you have experience using them, I totally agree!

I have a Chrony Beta Master. Lots of us call is the Master Beta, heh. I also call it “the fun sucker.”

Chrony does well: clocking loads

Chrony does not well: interface. Power of a 1985 super computer but wholly controlled with only three click buttons.

Chrony does TRAIN WRECK AWFUL: here is a device that can do extreme college level math (standard deviation, not simple addition here) and it limits you to a 10-shot string.

10 shots! Have you got a potentially great load, and a low SD interests you? Well here is the CHRONY, where 10 shots is the limit of it’s ability.

If I had a load that looked good, I’d want 30 or 50 shots. Sample size! But if you have a CHRONY, sorry bout your luck.

 

[rwsmith]

I think that testing the Sig round.....

...over the Chrono pretty much showed that the Chrono is doing it's job. Gotta be the load or the gun.

My Speer #9 has an extensive section titles "Why Ballisticians get grey". The idea is the the variance between similar guns and even guns of the same make and model have widely varying results in velocity testing. Which means if they use a Colt Python as a test and you have a Colt Python they will unlikely get anywhere near the same readings if one barrel is tight and the other is a bit in the loose side.

They put all the results down in a chart and the spread is pretty amazing.

Of course the '10" test barrel' doesn't correlate to anything in my book.