.357 Magnum +p+?

[18_Bravo]

Apologies, but I couldn't think of a better title.

So I thought I'd get into reloading several months ago. The only powder available was an eight pound container of Hodgdon's TiteGroup.

I had the little data sheet from the Lee hand loading set. It did not list that powder. The guy at Cabela's said no worries -
(which I've later learned was not quite correct as I told him I intended to load .357 Magnum as well as .38 Special) all of the different powders listed on the sheet said to use the supplied dipper, and he said I couldn't go wrong with using it for TiteGroup.

My first .38 Special loads were pretty impressive - huge fireball and more felt recoil the 9mm, which I thought was odd. And much like a baseball getting hit right out of its skin like on The Natural, the X-treme 158 grain plated bullets were literally being shot right out of their skins.
I didn't realize the significance of the keyholing - I told my wife the weird holes must have been the result of cheap paper the Army was using on its 50 yard bullseye targets.
Now after a lot of research I realize just what was happening.
Here's the scary thing:
I was using the scoop as suggested. But I later called Hodgdon's directly and the guy said to use between 3.2 and 3.7 grains for the bullets I was using. Out of curiosity I weighed the powder in one of those scoops. I did it five times to get an average. It didn't matter - they were all almost exactly 5.7 grains!
The highest recommended charge for .357 Magnum with TiteGroup is 5.0 grains, and I was well above that using .38 Special cases.
Obviously there are several lessons learned here. Thankfully the 686 didn't deconstruct itself.
But for anyone interested, I've done the testing for you!
You could go 5.7 grains in a .357 Magnum case rather than .38 Special, with no apparent ill effects!
My newest load is 3.2 grains of TiteGroup pushing 158 grain lead SWC bullets. I've fired about 200 rounds of that, and 4.0 grains pushing the same bullets in .357 Magnum. At 7 meters all seven rounds are going into a one inch black paster, off hand. So the gun still works! Whew!

 

[M29since14]

I realize you’re probably just trying to be economical but I’d suggest, as soon as you can possible afford it, to buy a scale and a loading manual. Compared to the cost of your 686, and to say nothing about the value of your safety, those two items are insignificant. Glad to know both you and the revolver survived that little excursion.

 

[venomballistics]

The guy at Cabela's was probably making assumptions about you having a powder measure and possession of data.
You'd do well to buy a manual or two.... Hornady and or Lyman. Read them, and understand the process as we employ it, rather than the dipper of faith method.

 

[BC38]

You are a fortunate fellow.
A few rounds that are 15% above max, even in brass with 10% less volume, isn't likely to deconstruct an L-frame like your 686, but if you were shooting it in a lesser gun the results could have been very bad.
Tightgroup is one of those really potent powders that only requires very small quantities. Because of that it is also one of the powders most frequently double-charged causing a KABOOM event.
Take other's advice, especially if you are going to use a dense powder like Tightroup, and get yourself a good reloading manual or three and a good scale to accurately weigh your charges.

 

[CorvZ061]

most powder manufacturers have load data listed on their website, Hodgdon's website has a very good reload data section, you'll be doing yourself well to go there and check out the data to work up your loads. word of mouth, especially from a random person at a store, should be taken lightly. I'm glad there were no ill effects to you or the gun, but that isn't always the case.

 

[18_Bravo]

While economy is always a thought, I don't mind spending money for important things. I purchased a balance scale when I realized something wasn't quite right. As for the manual, if I reloaded a lot of different loads, I'd get it sooner than later. But I've read differing data from folks quoting different manuals., and it varies quite a bit depending on which one they're using. From what I've seen Titegroup is often not included anyway. I've found that calling Hodgdon's directly was a good call - they've given me solid data so far. I'm using 4 grains for 115 grain HAP 9mm, and it's perfect. Also with some insanely tight groups at 7 meters.. I guess that's how the powder gets its name.
For now I shall rely upon them for .45 ACP data, using HAP bullets as well.

 

[bluetopper]

Buy a copy of the book "The ABC's of Reloading". Read it front to back...then read it again.

Reloading is ALL about chamber pressure.

If there is one powder a newbie reloader doesn't need to have in his possession it's Titegroup.....in my opinion.

 

[dwh]

THE FIRST PIECE OF EQUIPMENT EVERY RELOADER NEEDS IS A LOADING MANUAL PRIOD! I started reloading when I was 15, my Uncle handed me a Lyman manual and told me to read it 3 time. He then helped me get set up. Please please buy a a manual, scale and powder hopper.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

"All of the different powders listed on the sheet said to use the supplied dipper..."

Frankly, that's a pretty far stretch from being accurate. If the clerk told you that he needs to have his head examined and the store manager should be notified.

Different powders obviously call for different weights: why assume the one dipper included equals the listed weight for ANY powder unless the LEE loading sheet calls out specifically that numbered dipper?

Perhaps the OP might consider re-evaluating this new hobby and loading procedures?

P.S. Tite Group was not listed on the sheet. There are 16 different loads and bullets listed on the Hodgdons website for Tite Group for 38 Special. In 38 Special +P they list 9... And 5.7gr Tite Group is a mid-range 357 Magnum load with a 158gr XTP in 357 magnum brass.

 

[austintexas]

Over loads

When I first started reloading I used 38 special brass because you could find it lying on the ground at the range and I was working for $1.27 an hour. I accidentally double charged a 38, using Bullseye. Luckily my only revolver was a m-19. It really roared when I touched it off, the primer was pushed back thru the firing pin hole, Hand to get a rubber maillot and shear it to open the cylinder and a wooden dowel to get the case out. luckily I was shooting my 38's in a 357 magnum. I still have that m-19 (bought it in 1962 while I was in the military)
SWCA 892

 

[Doug M.]

There are a lot of knuckleheads who work in gun stores. Take the advice of the folks above about learning to reload. Next time you feel like taking a gun store person's advice about just about anything, pay someone to head slap you until you get over that.

 

[Chubbs103]

Buy a copy of the book "The ABC's of Reloading". Read it front to back...then read it again.

I was so cheap when I started, I read "The ABCs of Reloading" after checking it out from the library.

I had enough respect for the energy involved (and my fingers) to to read the Lyman manual I purchased and the ABCs a couple of times before I ever bought my first pound of powder.

 

[venomballistics]

I was so cheap when I started, I read "The ABCs of Reloading" after checking it out from the library.

I had enough respect for the energy involved (and my fingers) to to read the Lyman manual I purchased and the ABCs a couple of times before I ever bought my first pound of powder.

Can't say as I was that over cautious about it, but the first thing I bought was the Hornady manual and nothing else till I read and understood it.
My in store guys were of a higher caliber. Gleened a few setup tricks from them. None the less, I had the core concepts down before I went in.

 

[Rlg#17]

Oooops like this can go from bad to real bad in just the fraction of a second. Buy manuals, several of them. Read them. Take a class. Get a mentor.

Get rid of the Lee, buy a real set up. Lees measure by volume, not necessarily by weight. Stick with published data. Most of the manufacturers provide online load data, eg hogdon etc. DO NOT, trust jimbob at the lgs, or boobtube unless you have verified it thru a recognized source, eg hogdon.com, load data, Handloader mag.

Stop being cheap! Don’t you think you owe it to yourself and your wife to be a bit more cautious instead of just saying I r a reloader?

I would bet that the way you were blowing jackets offa bullets, keyholing them you were pretty severely over accepted pressure. Pretty unsafe for you and anyone around you.

First grenading of a revolver ever saw was a situation similar to yours. Brand new Colt Cobra. It took 3 shots to blow it up. Similar situation to yours with the Lee kit. Instruction sheet said 1 dipper of X brand powder. Genius decides that if 1 is good, 3 should be even better…. Pretty spectacular I might add. Blew the top strap off and two charge holes. Caught the top strap in the forehead, and of course no eye protection…

Either educate yourself a bit more, or get another hobby. Hand loading can be a safe and rewarding hobby, pastime, endeavor or what ever you want it to be. Or it can be something dangerous that literally blows up in your face in a fraction of a second…

But you do you boo!

Regards, Rick Gibbs

 

[glenwolde]

Congratulations to yourself and your revolver for surviving this incident! I worked at a very busy Cabela's for a few months. I was the only reloader on staff. Just sayin'....

 

[rosewood]

Had this been an older weak 38 special firearm, you likely would have destroyed it and possibly injured yourself and some around you.

Fortunately a 686 is a strong firearm and guns are far stronger than most folks give them credit for. They are rated/tested much higher pressures than the max loads in manuals. That being said, over pressure many times won't blow up a gun, but will beat the snot out of it and cause premature wear. In your case, caused severe accuracy issues. Glad you clued in on the fact something was wrong and started investigating. Chalk this one up as experience without pain and suffering and apply what you have learned on all future loading endeavors.

Rosewood

 

[rockquarry]

Regarding "ABCs of Reloading"... a beginner would be better off spending money on one or more additional load manuals rather than purchasing the ABCs book. ABCs may contain some useful but very limited information for beginning handloaders. However, most of the articles are directed more towards handloaders with at least some experience.

ABCs is certainly better than YouTube, but reading and understanding handloading procedures as outlined in at least two, maybe three handloading manuals provides a broader and solid background for a basic handloading education. This is something many try to shortcut these days and often end up regretting later.

 

[BillBro]

I am seriously not trying to be rude or condescending but did you not at least read up on reloading somewhere? Anywhere? Here? Another forum? I mean, you didnt just happen to be in cabelas one day and see the reloading stuff and decide there to buy it and start reloading did you? And to listen to the guy behind the counter, who might not know jack about anything is a bad move too. Everyone also says not to listen to folks on forums about reloading but Ive learned as much or more about the subject here as I have anywhere else.
Its a dangerous endeavir and I am honestly thankful that youre ok first, and that your gun and bystanders made it out ok too.
Take your time and educate yourself and have fun my friend.

 

[Mike-AK]

Find an old guy with old equipment and all his fingers and eyes to serve as a mentor.

 

[Funflyer]