357 Magnum versus protective vest?

[gym cat]

I am no expert but would think the impact of a 357 would either knock the person down or stun him enough to at least get a head shot.

 

[WR Moore]

While individual reactions can vary widely, there is/was substantial available video from surveillance cameras or news sources that suggest you not bet on this.

I specifically recall an incident 30+ years ago where an officer serving a warrant took a rifled slug to the chest. He looked like a tree swaying in a hurricane (may have taken a step or two backward?), but drew and killed his assailant. No information on injuries, but "massive bruising" was cited. The vest wasn't rated to stop that slug. Steel sternum plate?

 

[ruger 22]

About your question regarding return fire---I think it would take a bit of time to figure out what happened after being hit like that since the victim would be flat on the ground.

 

[biku324]

No. Billy Ray Gibson shot Deming Police Officer Royce Bennett on the vest with a Marlin 45/70 from 2-3 feet away; Bennett drew and returned fire, emptying his M10 into Gibson's car door before collapsing and dying. The 45/70 slug pushed a portion of the vest (it remained intact) into Bennett's chest, stopping his heart.

 

[S-W4EVER]

I saw my first vest at Ft. Bragg when I returned from overseas in ‘75. I had never even heard of a “Second Chance” before then. A SGT in our company sold them and I bought a new Model Y from him for $90 before I ETSed and I wore it on the job.

Richard Davis saved a lot of LEO’s lives over the years.

 

[Echo40]

It really is a shame to see how Richard C. Davis name has been dragged through the mud ever since that "2nd Chance" 2022 Documentary that makes him out to be a con-artist over the whole Zytel Vest debacle.

When I searched his name via Duck Duck Go, all it turned up was that slanderous documentary and reviews of it by liberal news outlets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3jQb6QwSz0
At about 14:40 he shoots himself with a .38 special

It's a .38 S&W, but still, even that diminutive little cartridge left a nasty bruise.

 

[Bald1]

Vests, both tactical and soft, have been around long enough that folks who intend to harm those wearing vests train to shoot above or below them. The same is true for person-borne suicide (PBIED) vests.

This should be a matter of habit. When the Tops Market shooter entered the store 2 yrs ago a security guard who was a retired Buffalo Cop engaged him but only put rounds into his chest. He was wearing armor. It’s easy to second guess someone, as I’m not staring down the barrel of an AR. But it seems like 2 to the chest then head or pelvis should just come natural with all the training he would have done as a LEO.

 

[S-W4EVER]

… But it seems like 2 to the chest then head or pelvis should just come natural with all the training he would have done as a LEO.

I agree. I always tried to put two in the chest and two in the head in the Firearms Training Simulator over the years.

 

[stansdds]

The Mozambique drill, two shots center of mass and a third shot to the brain bucket.

 

[Mike 139]

Early 70’s, We had 3 Officers shot & Killed in two separate incidents weeks apart….My former MIL got a St.Michael medal for Me, But I felt a lot better after I bought a Second Chance Vest that I wore every Shift…Couple years later, I responded to an Alarm and as I entered the rear alley, a Subject fled on foot…He suddenly made a sharp turn between Buildings and as I made the turn, was flung back on the ground…Apparently the Business Owner decided to put a strand of barb wire at waist level across the opening.

The barbed wire cut my Uniform Shirt and the front of the Carrier…I had some cuts on my arms and stopped by the ER for a tetanus shot….I always had extra carriers for the Ballistic panels as the Carriers got washed a lot…

My last Vest weighs close to 20 lbs with the K30 insert in the front pocket….Hot? Yes…especially in Florida heat…effective? YES…. Richard Davis has some 1000 documented saves with his Product…Point Blank and Safariland came later… The City would pay for a Vest every 5 Years….My Vest retired when I did, it stays on a shelf in a closet….

 

[biku324]

They don't take getting soaked well, either.

 

[rwsmith]

Maybe it will....

Maybe it will save your life but it HAS to HURT!

 

[cd228]

No one else read the inside label on the plates in basic training. NOTHING like relying on a composite plate, that according to the manufacturers label is 8 years past expiration.

Did your draw yours from CIF or where they on your bunk in the bay when you arrived?

Alot of the plates you see in garrison are for training use only. Sometimes they have labels that say that, sometimes they don't. Guys and Gals going downrange or on some rotations get their plates (ESAPI) via RFI.

 

[cd228]

if dealing with KEVLAR vests... you have to include AGE of the vest itself.

MOST folks dont comprehend that the vests have a life span based on degredation of the product, and most vests are only considered safe for intended useage for about 5 years after they are actually made.

If only someone made 6 year vests, the money they could make! . It's my understanding from talking to the guys that I buy my armor from that the 5 years is due to NIJ standards verses the material itself. The actual life of the vest depends on a number of factors and could potentially still be viable well after 5 years, but it's very much a YMMV situation.

 

[Piwo]

I bought a Second Chance level 2a vest back in 1990. I wore it for 6 years every day on the job until the department started issuing them. In 2003 my niece did a term paper/science project on ballistic vests. We shot my old vest with a 44 magnum, a 357 magnum, 9mm, 30 tokarev and a 38 special. For the revolvers I shot it with a lead swc and a jhp for comparison. The 9mm I fired a jhp and a NATO load. The tok used FMJ only. My vest was well worn by then, having been alternately soaked in sweat and dried every day I wore it. It was frayed at the edges. I wrapped the vest around a large bundle of newspaper, the size of a man's chest. Because of the number of shots, I shot both the front and the back trying to keep the shots as far apart as possible. I can say this...The vest still stopped all the rounds it was rated for. The 44 mag did a lot of damage to the tightly wound newsprint that amazed all of us. Only 2 rounds of the group of shots from the various guns penetrated. The 9mm NATO penetrated the front of the vest and lodged in the paper an inch or so in. The 30 Tokarev easily pierced the front of the vest, the newsprint and lodged in the back panel as I recall. The vest was not rated for th3 NATO load or the Tokarev. Pretty good for a 23 year old vest that was heavily used. My niece got an A on the project.

 

[Piwo]

Correction..my fat finger punched a wrong number---The vest was 13 years old. OOPS!

 

[cd228]

lI can say this...The vest still stopped all the rounds it was rated for. The 44 mag did a lot of damage to the tightly wound newsprint that amazed all of us. Only 2 rounds of the group of shots from the various guns penetrated. The 9mm NATO penetrated the front of the vest and lodged in the paper an inch or so in. The 30 Tokarev easily pierced the front of the vest, the newsprint and lodged in the back panel as I recall. The vest was not rated for the NATO load or the Tokarev. Pretty good for a 23 year old vest that was heavily used. My niece got an A on the project.

Neat, talk about a cool project. The old 9mm NATO was a hotter round than you more common 115 ball. The 30 TOK aka 7.62x25 was at one point IIRC classified as a special threat pistol round, there was a version the did 1,400 or more with an 85 grain FMJ. As your test showed, it can penetrate where other rounds couldn't.

I spent the lat couple days trying to find the old NIJ document on special threat pistol rounds, but every time I put special threat into the search engines I get rifle plates. I'll keep looking.

 

[Grayfox]

Some years back I was at a shooting event. A guy broke out a standard issue Police vest. He put it on a vertical railroad tie and we took turns shooting it with various calibers.
It stopped all the handgun rounds. But rifle rounds went right through.
I hit it with one of my 300gr .45 Colt hunting loads out of my 5" S&W 25-7. The vest stopped the bullet, but it pushed the material almost 2 inches into the post. We had to cut the vest free.

 

[WR Moore]

The time limit on warranty has much more to do with the fact that Dupont (or whoever makes the material) has no control on how the vest is used, stored and cared for. My first vest came with warnings not to fold, dry clean or expose the panels to direct sun light. They also had to be dry. IIRC, the guy who was save # 700 was wearing a vest several years past the suggested replacement date and it still worked fine.

I've still got a IIA test swatch around here from ~1990. I'll have to see if I can find it. Back when, I hit it with a 9 mm ball round it wasn't rated to stop-but it did. Backface deformation was impressive, but I do believe it only made it about half way through.

 

[old bear]

I recall watching a video of Richard Davis ( Second Chance Vests) shooting Himself in the chest with a .357 Mag. He went down and when He finished with the profanity all that could be heard was " Damn that hurts!"

O/P, see Mr. Davis comments. That should normally take someone out of the fight and give you time to decide how to "take care of business."