.357 SIG: I have questions...

[swsig]

And I know you guys have answers.

I'm considering buying a .357 SIG semi-auto, because I've never owned one. I enjoy having a variety of different calibers to shoot, and I'm intrigued by the idea of firing what is essentially a 9mm bullet with a .40 cal. charge. So here are my questions:

1. All other things being equal, how accurate is the .357 SIG in comparison to the other commonly available semi-auto rounds? On various websites, I've read a lot of owner testimonials about the superior accuracy of the .357 SIG. What's been your experience?

2. How effective is the .357 SIG as a self-defense round? The most recent DocGKR findings show he has dropped the .357 SIG from his list of recommended rounds. (See Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo). Lucky Gunner (See http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#rid=libertyrising) hasn't tested it at all. The most positive thing I've read about it as an SD round is that it is used by the Texas Highway Patrol because of its superior windshield penetration capabilities.

3. What are your pistol recommendations? I've shot a friend's SIG P226 9mm, and it had the best factory stock trigger I've ever pulled, so I am leaning in the P226/P229 direction. But I know there are other excellent .357 SIG pistols out there, so I'm willing to consider others.

Thanks!

 

[DWalt]

The Texas DPS used the SIG P226 in .357 SIG until about 2014, when it went to the S&W M&P in 9mm. Then they had some serious malfunction problems with the M&P, and dropped it. Not sure what handgun they are using at the minute, but I believe they are still using the SIG in .357 SIG. Allegedly, they didn't drop the .357 SIG because it wasn't effective, but instead thought the M&P pistol would be more ergonomic. I don't believe anyone could say the .357 SIG wasn't effective, but I know reloaders don't like it for some reason. Not a caliber with which I have any personal experience.

 

[shocker]

I don't believe anyone could say the .357 SIG wasn't effective, but I know reloaders don't like it for some reason.

I would guess it's because straight walled cases are less hassle to resize than bottleneck ones. Like many of the less popular calibers, there's no free brass lying around the range.

 

[TexasRaider]

The Texas DPS never issued the S&W M&P, it failed to make it through the first recruit school it was issued to and was dropped halfway through firearms training and the recruits were issued the standard P226 in .357 Sig. Current recruit schools are being issued the Sig P320 Full Size in 9mm, duty round is the Hornady 135 gr. Critical Duty.

The .357 Sig was carried since about 1998, with outstanding results. Take care when reading folks' "scores" of handgun rounds. Like boxing, it comes down to how scorer defines a good score. If you're the FBI, penetration and bonded rounds are the little demigods you worship. Others like lightweight, high speed rounds. Some just want large caliber bullets moving slow. The .357 Sig has worked very well for many agencies, including the Texas DPS, Oklahoma Highway Patrol, Sky Marshals, Secret Service, etc etc etc. It's basically a 9mm +P+ without the +P+ pressures beating your gun to tinkertoys.

Don't know 'DocGKR' or why he's considered an expert, but frankly after years of talking to officers that have actually been in shootings and talking to investigators in the after action reports, I have my own opinions. But any conventional caliber loaded intelligently should be fine, if you take care of the software part (between the ears).

As far as defense goes, what's more important is can you shoot what you carry accurately, repeatedly on target, under stress? The skill set is 90% of the battle, the caliber and cartridge is only the tool. I'm betting Arnold Palmer could have gone to K-Mart and bought a cheap run of the mill golf club set and still beat 99.9% of the worlds population in a scramble.

Accuracy wise the .357 Sig is the most accurate caliber I own in a factory weapon. The 125 grain rounds tend, to me anyway, to be the most accurate of the lot. A 1.5" group at 25 years isn't uncommon with a full size barrel from a rock steady bench rest shoot.

My preferred weapon to shoot is a full size Sig P226. The longer sight radius and the bit of extra nose weight makes it easy to shoot. For me it tends to 'push back' whereas the .40 S&W tends to be 'flippy' in the nose. I like the .357 Sig's recoil better, but they're not a continent apart. I do have a '94 P229 that, with Hogue rubber grips, is good to shoot for up close work, out to maybe 15-20 yards. My old eyes like the longer site picture of the P226 better, but the P229 isn't bad. My P239 is not as much fun as either, as it doesn't have the weight to dampen the recoil....when you shoot it, you know it's not a 9mm. Personally, I really didn't like the striker fired pistols I've shot in .357 Sig, it's too much caliber for such light guns, too much feedback through the frame. Feels like they're getting punished.

If you don't mind the extra weight, find an all stainless steel frame/slide P226 in that caliber. They're heavier to carry, but they eat up that recoil like cotton candy.

Good luck!

 

[Blackshirt]

I consider .357 Sig to be the best commonly available auto-pistol self defense cartridge available. The ammunition industry has created their own standard for +P+ loadings (SAAMI only defines limits for +P). This means that Buffalo Bore or Underwood ammo in 9mm 124 grain +P+ will go 1300fps. These same vendors sell standard pressure .357 Sig 125 grain that leaves the barrel at 1425-1450fps. The KE for these rounds are correspondingly epic, with numbers ranging from 500-600 lbs/ft. Nearly all .357 Sig ammo uses either bonded hollow points or full metal jackets to prevent fragmentation due to the high velocities (S&B makes a 140 grain FMJ that is great in the field).

Okay, so what about 10mm or .45? Well here's the difference. A .357 Sig pistol is no bigger than a 9mm in most formats. They are easier to conceal and or just tote around due to their size. The thing that you sacrifice is one or two rounds of capacity. Apart from that, the size and weight is very similar. A 10mm or .45 ACP requires greater size and weight...

As for pistols, I like Glocks for their reliability, modular design, low bore axis, and light weight. The new Sig 320 is another good striker design. If you prefer an all metal gun in DA/SA the Sig P226/229/239s are excellent quality pieces (albeit a more expensive choice) available in .357. All of the above pistols can be converted to a .40 S&W with just a barrel change.

I qualify for 50 state concealed carry through the LEOSA annually. With my Glock 32 my lowest score for the Louisiana Peace Officer course has been 118/120 with a fist-sized hole at center mass. What is more is that it is a very flat shooting round...no neck-hold is necessary at 50 yards. The funnel-shaped cartridge feeds beautifully. I have not had a single malfunction with my G32 in twelve years.

I can't believe that this cartridge is not the "next big thing." Try one out...when you hear and see a 125 grain bullet hit a pepper-popper at 1400fps, you'll be a believer.

 

[AlHunt]

Glock 33 in 357 SIG, here. The only think I would add to the above is that I think the 9MM bullet feeding into the 10MM sized chamber reduces the chance of jamming, all other things working correctly.

I'll add that I find the recoil more manageable than a 38 caliber J frame. More thump, sure, but it's a straight back push instead of the twisty muzzle flip of the J frame.

I think 357 SIG is misunderstood and under rated. I separated bullet seating and crimping steps when reloading and it reloads just fine.

 

[Wee Hooker]

I've got a few in the herd. Glock 31 and an M&Ppro. ( Considering a Sig 1911 in this caliber right now as well.) Both are great shooters with high reliability. As for effectiveness, I'll just say is that all you need to do is fire some factory rounds to know this round has all the "umph" you will need. It clearly ain't no 9mm!
That said, I'm not sure I would own one as a "first string" gun as ammo can be elusive and expensive. I reload for mine which just adds to the fun.
The joy of many 357 sig offerings though is that you can buy a 40S&W barrel and enjoy cheap and plentiful 40 cal ammo for the range.

 

[ColbyBruce]

I own a Sig P239, Glock 31 and Glock 32. My son has a Glock 31, has owned several Sig P226/229 pistols and a Glock 33. The .357 Sig shoots flat and hits hard. I believe you will enjoy it.

 

[Arik]

My idea is to use something you can train with a lot. 356 sig is $20 a box of range ammo. That's double the price of 9 and $5 - $7 more than the 40/45. I can't train with 9 for $210/1000

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Muss Muggins]

Too expensive to shoot for me to consider . . .

 

[fyimo]

I have a Sig P226 in 40S&W and I have a 357 Sig barrel for it and magazines in both calibers. The 357 Sig is a flat shooting round and is very accurate. The problem for me is that it isn't easy to reload and for me the 40 S&W is plenty accurate and easy to reload.

 

[Savoy06]

I am one of the ones enamored with the 357Sig. I confess all my range ammo is free for it. I'm currently a long time owner of a glock 31, 32 and a 35 with a Bar-sto 357 Sig barrel in it. ,Im not a goup meaesurer but if i do my part I can keep them on a paper plate at a 100yds, good enough for me. I've shot two coyotes with the 35 and it flat out crumpled them. When my friends express a desire to get that caliper I always suggest they have the abilty to convert it to a 40 or a 9mm in the event the caliper decides to fade away your not stuck with a paper weight. I hope this helps your decision Cheers Joe

 

[Texas Star]

Dallas PD uses SIG's and one officer I talked to carries a .357 because the 9mm issued ammo is subsonic stuff in which he has lmited confidence.


I agree. But if hotter 9mm ammo was authorized, I'd feel less need for a .357 SIG.


But I suspect the .357 SIG is indeed the most effective defense load in an auto pistol. And it has a lot of outdoors potentual, too.


TX DPS used to authorize SIG .45's. A highway patrolman using one fired at a trucker in a big rig. His bullets did not pierce the door and strike the trucker. His partner had a .357 SIG and the faster bullets did penetrate and killed the target.


I've read that this incident caused DPS to adopt the .357 SIG as standard. I think it performs very well, and would probably give an officer an edge if he had to shoot an alligator. That can happen here.

 

[federali]

.357 SIG

Before the advent of the .40 and the .357 SIG, the .357 Magnum was often credited with having the highest percentage of one-shot stops. The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate .357 Magnum ballistics so I wouldn't worry about its effectiveness in SD situations.

I think the SIG round would have garnered a much larger chunk of the police market but the .40 got there first. If anything, there are probably too many SD rounds to choose from. With the resurgence of the 9mm, for having a balance between street effectiveness combined with ease of handling, recoil recovery and high capacity, I think the .45 GAP will fade a way and the .357 SIG will slowly fade away. The .40 seems to be in a decline yet the more than 100-year-old .45 ACP is as strong as ever. Go figure.

 

[armadillo]

I am a believer in the 357 Sig. I only got one a couple of years ago when I bought a used P-229 in 40 S&W and my son told me about getting a drop-in 357 Sig barrel.

I started my LE career in the old revolver days and always preferred my M-19 or M-65 with 158 gr. JSPs to a 9mm. My WWII vet mentor told me the "oldtimers" liked the 1911 in 38 Super because (in the old days) it was the only semi-auto that would reliably shoot through a car door or windshield like a 357 Mag. I never could bring myself to pay the price for a 38 Super.

When I compared the ballistics of the 357 Sig to the 38 Super and the 357 Mag 125 gr. from a snub-nose revolver I realized that the 357 Sig is something special. Now when I do my LEOSA qualification I use the 40 S&W barrel (since I have to pay for the ammo), but list it on the rangemaster's sheet as 40/357 so I can carry it as a 357 Sig.

As to reloading - I haven't tried it yet. Some say the short neck makes it hard to load reliably. Since the 40 S&W is so easy to reload, I will just shoot factory 357 Sig and swap barrels for practice.

 

[DWalt]

"I'm betting Arnold Palmer could have gone to K-Mart and bought a cheap run of the mill golf club set and still beat 99.9% of the worlds population in a scramble."

Probably true. Some years ago I remember (with lack of detail) reading something about some famous pro tennis player being challenged to use an old-style wooden tennis racket from the 1950s (obviously re-strung) to see how well he could do with it. Turned out his performance was as good with it as the more modern graphite-aluminum rackets.

 

[Frank46]

I've a sig P239 in 40 S&W and recently there have been a bunch of articles saying the cartridge was on the way out. Don't shoot it as much as I used to but even though it is a single stack magazine. I don't feel like I'm undergunned. and am very pleased that P239 in that caliber is very accurate. My other sig is a P6 which is the West German designation for that pistol. Very accurate 9mm which I like very much. The only ammo I've used in it is Winchester White Box in either the 165 grain or 180 grain loadings. I got lucky when Aim Surplus was selling the magazines for about $16 each so bought about 8 spare mags. I really like the P6 as its been the most accurate 9mm to date that I have shot. Frank

 

[cowboy4evr]

I have a Sig P320 Compact (poly frame , striker fired ) in 357 sig . It is very accurate . The gun itself is light weight , easy to carry , easy to shoot . I don't notice the recoil , at all .
I reload for it and , contrary to what others will tell you , it is a very easy cartridge to reload . I bought the Lee 3 pc set and the Lee factory crimp die . Yes , they are steel so you have to use case lube . So what ? We did that for years . I use Imperial Sizing Wax . I use Ranier 124 gr heavy plated bullet sized .355 . I have used BE-86 and Accurate #9 powders , both with great success . I have never experienced a problem reloading it .
It will penetrate barriers that 9mm, 40mm and 45acp calibers won't . I'm a revolver guy through and through , but I do like my Sig P320 C in 357 sig .

 

[Tom S.]

I use Dillon's carbide die set for the 357 Sig. It's quite expensive, and lube is still required, which I think may turn a lot of reloaders off. Other than that, the round is no more difficult to load than any other. By the very nature of their design, bottle neck rounds are more reliable in feeding, and I've never had a failure to feed, something I can't say for 9mm, 40, or 45 acp.

The downside to the round other than cost and availability is firing from a pocket sized pistol is daunting. Lots of flame and recoil, which is natural given the velocity and powder used vs the short barrels it's usually fired from. Reminiscent of a 357 mag fired from 2" barrel snub nose. Remember that pistols chambered for the 357 Mag are usually revolvers, which tend to be heavier and help tame some of the recoil, where as most the semi autos chambered for this round are relatively light, having polymer frames.

EDIT: I forgot to add, that bottle neck cartridges are also prone to stretching and work hardening, which requires trimming and annealing the brass. That's not difficult on 20 or 40 rifle rounds, but on 500 pistol rounds it's a major pain.

 

[DWalt]

Just for my own curiosity, has anyone tried forming the .357 SIG cases from .40 S&W using the .357 SIG FL die? Sort of like making .400 Cor-Bon cases from .45 ACP brass. I do that. Sort of wish the case necks were longer. And indeed carbide FL dies do not work well on bottleneck cases. For .400 Cor-Bon, I FL-size fired cases in .45 ACP carbide dies, then run those sized cases through the .400 Cor-Bon FL die without lubrication to size the necks. Works OK.