.38 150gr JHC with Bullseye - might be wrong load???

[PDL]

About 20 years ago I'd loaded up some .38 specials - relatively new to reloading, (.45 with unique mostly). This was the first batch of .38 and the first time with bullseye. They were 150gr Jacketed Hollow Cavity Sierra Bullets with 4.4 gr Bullseye behind them. I shot quite a few rounds out of my mod 36 without any problems. No signs of excessive pressure etc. They were a bit snappier sounding than factory ammo, but it was a new gun with only a couple of hundred factory rnds before the handloads. Not much in the way of recoil, but I was used to using the .45.
I haven't shot them in 20 years or so, but still have 6 or 8 boxes around. For some reason I thought they were 158gr, but the bullet box, and the scale said 150gr.
Tried to look up loading data for a 150 JHC Sierra, but they don't even list the bullet online and I don't have a Sierra manual. Memory doesn't stretch to remember where the 4.4 gr load came from. But now that I want to use up the old ammo, I wanted to ask if anyone loads something close to the 150 gr jacketed, using Bullseye. And does a 4.4gr load come anywhere withing a safe zone, or are we pushing the envelope.
As I said, there was no sign of excessive pressure or recoil etc out of the Jframe. Pistol was purchased new in '82. 2 1/2" mod 36.
I don't want to dismantle the stuff, if I don't have to. But I also don't want a grenade going off in my hand either.

 

[Steve C]

You should be fine with your 4.4gr Bullseye load with 150 gr Sierra's.

My oldest Sierra Manual is second edition and though it lists the 150gr JHC bullet for the .38 spl it doesn't list a load using Bullseye. Could tell you loads for some out of production powders like AL-5 and AL-7 though.

In my compiled .38 spl load data book published 1993 both the Sierra and Speer manuals say you can use up to 4.9 grs of Bulleye with a 158gr jacketed bullet though the 150gr JHC's had disappeared from the Sierra lineup by then.

If you get a chance to run them over a chrono let us know what the results are. I'd suspect around 850 fps from a 4" barrel revolver and sub 800 fps from a 2".

 

[surveyor47]

I would phone Hodgdon's technical assistance line and ask them. The thing I would worry about is jacket/core separation in the barrel, particularly with those old Speer jacketed semi wadcutters. If that were to occur, it could ruin your whole day.

Hodgdon - The Gun Powder People

The Speer Reloading Manual 9th Ed, 1974 does not list Bullseye with any of their jacketed bullets. That old Speer 9th Ed manual was a bit spooky at best, so if Speer doesnt list it in their 9th Edition, it is a bit of a red flag.

Lyman Reloading Manual 48th Edition lists a 140 grain Speer JHP #4203 with 4.3 grains of Bullseye maximum at 16500 CUP, but that bullet is of a different design. Yours is probably at least in the +P catagory and possibly a little in excess of 38 Special pressures. The 146 grain Speer jacketed SWC bullet does not list Bullseye at all.

The Alliant website Alliant Powder - Home does not list Bullseye with that Bullseye.

I would consult with Hodgdon.

 

[surveyor47]

Those old J frames were not rated for +P 38 Special. They are a fine old gun, and I would be concerned about damaging that gun. A 357 gun gives you a better safety factor.

 

[n4zov]

I would not hesitate to shoot them. If they gave no indications of high pressure in the past and assuming proper storage over the years, they should be fine.

 

[surveyor47]

Hornady Reloading Manual 3rd Ed. lists their 158 JHP with 4.1 grains of Bullseye as a MAXIMUM +P load. The load you mentioned exceeds that.

I think this is a case of better safe than sorry, particluarly with an old J frame. Having ruined a S&W19 years ago, I would err on the side of caution.

 

[Treeman]

Once upon a time Sierra showed 5.1gr of Bullseye with their 140gr JHC. Several sources have shown 4.+ gr Beye with 158-160 bullets(even 4.5 with 158grain lead in a pressure tested +P load). Extrapolating (a calculated ,educated GUESS) from that info I have little doubt that your loads are safe(won't blow up the gun) and also +P......probably a little more +P than current standards allow.

 

[surveyor47]

You wouldnt get much argument from me if you said you intended to fire that load through a 357 gun. But an old NON +P J frame? I dont think so. I think the reloader was right in his original instinct not to shoot this ammo for 20 years.

 

[fredj338]

You used old BE powder, so old data is in order. My Speer #11 shows 4.3gr as min under a 158gr-160gr JSP & 5gr as +P. You should be fine w/ the 150grJHC load.

 

[Treeman]

Fred's post made me dig out my Speer #11. Not only does it have the load he listed but it also shows a standard pressure load of 4.5 grains of BE under a 150gr TMJ with a max +P of 5.4 grainsBE. I retract some of what I wrote before-yes I'm confident that it won't detroy the gun but now I'm not even certain that it is a +P load. Shoot 'em up.

FWIW Speer's load with Unique for their 150gr. TMJ is a half grain less than the Sierra Data for the 150gr. JHC

 

[PDL]

thanks everyone for the responses. As I said in the begining, I was young and dumb at the time. I had fired quite a bit of this load back then. And as I said, no hard extraction, no splits, bulges or pushed out primers. Not really excessive recoil, but then I was used to a 1911.
I'm still not sure where the loading data actually came from. It could easily have been a recomended load from G&A etc.
I dug out the only manual I had then. Its a Speer #10. They had a load of 4.3 for 158gr HP, 4.9 +P. The also list 4.4 for 140gr HP, 5.1 +P.
The other thing I should have been clearer on is the bullet. They called it a jacketed hollow cavity. 150gr. Dia -.357(or .358 I don't have a good caliper), straight to crimp groove, tapers to .28 at tip. .10 lead exposed. cavity .25 deep. OL - .66.

NJ hasn't been condusive to shooting, but I'm just getting back into it. Using up old stock first.
Needless to say, new manuals and all new supplies before doing any reloading.

 

[PDL]

I contacted sierra bullets to see if they'd comment on the load. The reply I got back said the load was a legitimate load and should be just fine.
Thanks again all who replied.

 

[lafayne]

Just to be on the safe side, why not shoot them in a .357 and then reload to suit with new components?

 

[lafayne]

Not trying to be disrespectful here, but just how would one get a jacket/core separation in a barrel? It would seem that the jacket is pushing the lead core out of the barrel. After this many years of shooting, I know lots of strange things can happen.

I have blown hollow base wadcutters into two projectiles and have experienced bullet break ups in fast twist rifle barrels. Has anyone experienced a jacket/core separation?

 

[Treeman]

Lafayne, Inertia. The only actual cases I ever heard about involved half jacketed/3/4jacketed bullets. The theory would be that the mild charge kicks things down the barrel, lacks sufficient gas propagation to continue accellerating the bullet the full length of the barrel, the core shoots forward due to the momentum it already possesses while excessive frictional drag retards the forward progress of the jacket.

 

[lafayne]

Treeman. Thanks for the info. That would seem to do it. I have used the old half jackets in the past, but was looking for some magnum loads and I am quite sure some of them were off the chart pressure wise with little chance of the jacket separation. I never had good results and my experience with them was short.