.38 cal 148 gr HBWC , hardness and size

[Al W.]

Hi Folks,
I've been loading and shooting some .38 special for the last couple of years.
I like the round and wanted to learn the ins and outs of bullseye shooting using the platform that was tradition when I was a kid.
The first hand loads I ever saw as a young fellow at the kitchen table were HBWC and I decided, when I picked up the hobby again a couple of years ago, to get right into that and shoot .38 with a Model 14 , 15 and a 52-2.
You know how it is , its pretty easy to be good but hard to be great and I'm playing catch up , but having fun in the process and don't mind getting into the weeds to pick up some knowledge.
A few weeks ago I noticed some excessive leading in a couple of my revolvers and after getting out my calipers and a couple of billets of tool steel and testing the hardness of the rounds I was shooting came to the conclusion that at least part of the problem was that some of the projectiles I was shooting seemed to be much softer than the others . I asked around on this sight about leading problems in my models of revolver and got some great advise that helped me start thinking about some factors that I hadn't considered before. Namely hardness and dimension of the projectiles.
I started using Hornady and Speer bullets which are listed as being .358 sized . If you put a caliper on them along the length of the bullet you pretty much get to that dimension + or - a .000.5. Those brands shot well but as I was shooting a lot of them it got a bit pricy. Now I know that getting the numbers all the way down is going to require that I form my own bullets but I'm not going there yet. I ain't retired yet ! So I'll be paying for bullets for a while.
So what I notice is that the dimensions and hardness are very variable from company to company . I now have about 5 different brands of WC. Most all HBWC , they vary in hardness and dimension from seemingly too darn soft right up to too dang hard , mixed in to dimensions between .356 right up to just about .360 , with the softest rounds coming in at the largest size about .359.5.
I guess I've got some thinking to do and some slugging to do .
I know some of you guys have been knowing about all this stuff for decades.
What are the factors and formula regarding hardness and dimension in the use of HBWC.
I'm looking for target / match grade performance.
Enjoying the ride and thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Best thing to do is buy 2-3 brands of the HBwc bullets and see how each shoots in your weapons.

Try 2-3 powders also, if that is an option or go with your go to powder.

Your weapon might like the soft or maybe the harder bullets, you just
have to sort things out.
There is no short cut when you start with new loads.

Good luck.

PS:
I had a good soft 148 LHBwc but I finally had to get a different bullet and am now
shooting a 148 BBwc, that has finally been developed into an accurate load for me.

If you find a good bullet.............
stock up.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

The most accurate HBWCs and WCs that I've fired were the swaged versions from Remington. They outshoot my cast WCs hands down.

That said, the big culprits for leading with softer alloys are:

1. Too small a diameter. Gas blow by before the bullet obturates will cause leading near the forcing cone and it just gets worse as you continue to shoot. Back in the day, the Colt revolvers generally has slightly smaller bores than Smiths and .356" bullets would shoot well in them.

2. Lubrication: With softer alloys, a good soft lube has been the best for me. Softer lubes will flow better and possibly vaporize to some extent when fired and that protects the bore better than the hard wax lubes found on most commercially cast bullets.

3. Velocity: Soft alloys are generally best shot at 700 to 800 fps for bullseye shooting.

4. Too hard an alloy: If the alloy is too hard it will not obturate at low pressures and velocities. The remedy here is to size them a bit large to mechanically obturate and seal the bore to prevent gas blow by.

5. Improper powder choice: Use Bullseye or Tightgroup to generate pressure early to help seal the bore right at the forcing cone. These powders, or their equivalents, will also provide pretty good accuracy with fairly low extreme spreads in velocity. 2.7 grains of Bullseye is the classic load for the 38 Special and in a good revolver will get you good scores at 25 yards and 50 yards using a good wadcutter. I like to light them off with the Remington 1 1/2 primer which seems to be optimize for target loads.

If you are buying bullets then consider the Speer or the Hornady HBWC versions. I do note that these lead a little bit in comparison with the Remington bullets, but they are far more readily available. If you buy the hard cast WCs, then try and buy a brand that is sized a bit large.

Penn Bullet company will cater to the hardness and diameter wishes of the customer. Also Missouri Bullet Company sells bullets of softer alloys.

For my cast bullets, I keep the alloy pretty soft at something like 2% tin and as little antimony as I can ween from the smelt by adding a lot of pure lead to the alloy. These obturate well, are accurate and don't lead at 800 fps.

 

[rwsmith]

Speer and Hornady..

...have a dry lubricant that works well at low target velocities. Don't push the too hard or you can blow a skirt off the bullet and leave it in the barrel.

Barrel diameter isn't as important with soft HBWCs because the skirt expands to fit the barrel. Shoot about 800 fps with a target powder.

There's not reason that other manufacturers can't make a good swaged wadcutter. Because they are swaged, but bullet material is very soft. I think that the lube is all important. I've never had HBWC lead up my barrel and I've shot thousands of them in the past.

 

[AManWearingAHat]

Roze distribution sells Zero's brand of Swaged HBWC. I have not yet personally tried them, but I have heard good things.

Price wise they are about inline with what I get my DEWC's for now. (Cheaper than Hornady's offerings)

 

[robertrwalsh]

You might try the plated ones from Berry's Bullets. They are not unreasonably expensive and they will certainly not lead. They won't necessarily be as accurate as a lead bullet, but maybe they will. By a small batch and find out.

 

[Schram]

Pretty much all of the swaged bullets are going to be in the 5-8 bhn range. The lube makes the biggest difference, assuming that you are running them between 750-800 fps. Not really a fan of the mica dry lube found on some off the commercial offerings.

.356 is probably too small for most s&w offerings...but the hbwc is very forgiving compared to traditional cast bullets. Most swaged hbwc's are going to mic. 357 or .358. Running 2.7 gr of BE should shoot well. Use wc brass (usually a cannelure 1/3 of the way from case mouth, sometimes 2 close together) if you can sort out a useful amount. Personally I use Zero or Hornady hbwc bullets pretty regularly.

Cast bullets can be an entirely different animal. Diameter, bhn, lube type, etc, etc. If you aren't up to casting your own, you are going to have to experiment. Even better, find a friend who already casts and partner up with them. That person will likely measure your throats and size accordingly. Then you get to experiment with a bunch of different variables in small batches, instead of buying large quantities from a commercial caster. They won't need to be very hard at all for bulseye type shooting.

If you have access to a Ransom Rest, it will take most of the guess work out of developing a 50 yard load.

 

[Eddietruett]

Roze distribution sells Zero's brand of Swaged HBWC. I have not yet personally tried them, but I have heard good things.

Price wise they are about inline with what I get my DEWC's for now. (Cheaper than Hornady's offerings)

I like the Zero Swaged HBWC. Never had any leading problems with 2.8-3gr Bullseye. It's as accurate as anything I've ever tried and priced fairly. I think the last time I ordered it was less than $70 per k with free shipping.

 

[stansdds]

If you decide to go to a solid style wadcutter instead of a hollow base wadcutter, I'd seriously consider looking for one that is powder coated. These should provide very little to no leading, yet the coating is flexible enough to allow the bullet to conform perfectly to the barrel lands and grooves, and are usually less expensive than plated bullets.

 

[max503]

I don't worry too much about leading in my big-bore revolvers. It's so easy to brush out. If the bullet shoots well, I use it.

 

[boatbum101]

If you're main concern is best accuracy then stick with a swaged HBWC . I consider the Remington & Winchester factory HBWC the best but are very very hard to find . If & when you do buy a case or 2 . The Zero & Magnus are also good accuracy wise & are priced quite reasonably . Even though the Bullseye load has been around I am not a fan of this powder in 38 special HBWC loads . I believe a slower powder works better ie W231 , WST , AA #2 , N-340 , N-320 . SR 7625 & 700X also work well .

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I used to swage my own hbwc but stopped when I found that my cast bullets could be as accurate if
A:diameter of bullet is slightly larger than the chamber mouth of the cylinder
B:the bullet is not too hard and propelled with a quick burning powder(Bullseye,700X,Red Dot,Promo,Titegroup,Nitro 100,Clays....)
C:appropriate lubricant is applied(Alox 606-55F better known as liquid Alox)
iSince cast bullets corresponding to these specs gave me equal or superior results and since they're less trouble to make,I've resumed to using cast.I came to these conclusions after many years of experimenting with both my model 14 and 52(plus a few other pieces of iron).
Anybody want to buy a swaging outfit for .358 cal bullets?

 

[Al W.]

Thanks to all for the helpful replies.
I've been sticking to BE and between 2.7 and 2.9 gr.
Just got some Zero, very soft, but sized well.
I have not tried Remington or Winchester because they seem to be off the shelves .
So far from the shooting I've done the Hornady do the trick in the S&W.
I'm going to have to run up 24 of each and shoot groups and clean in between to make any judgement .

 

[Forrest r]

When using long bodied soft bullets that are oversized you're better off using a expander that is made for lead bullets. Years ago I'd have excellent accuracy with .357" wc's/hbwc's, when I'd try .358" bullets the groups would open up. No internet back then & a bunch of head scratching and asking questions to fellow shooters/reloaders.
Ended up getting a lyman m-die expander and the problem went away. The m-die expands the case deeper protecting the base of the soft lead bullets along with the step at the top of the expander ball makes it easier to start the bullets strait in the case.

FWIW:
I couldn't tell the difference between a cast wc/hbwc and a swaged hbwc @ 50ft/25yds. It took the 50yd line to show the difference.

 

[boatbum101]

Yup 50yd line tells the difference . Many times a load that groups well @ 25yds opens up when you get to 50 .

 

[Al W.]

When using long bodied soft bullets that are oversized you're better off using a expander that is made for lead bullets. Years ago I'd have excellent accuracy with .357" wc's/hbwc's, when I'd try .358" bullets the groups would open up. No internet back then & a bunch of head scratching and asking questions to fellow shooters/reloaders.
Ended up getting a lyman m-die expander and the problem went away. The m-die expands the case deeper protecting the base of the soft lead bullets along with the step at the top of the expander ball makes it easier to start the bullets strait in the case.

FWIW:
I couldn't tell the difference between a cast wc/hbwc and a swaged hbwc @ 50ft/25yds. It took the 50yd line to show the difference.

I like this case taper idea. I suspect you are correct. I noticed yesterday when loading some of the larger diameter bullets that I was seeing some lower case bulge and was having a bit more resistance placing the round in the case as well as some shaving . So yeah.
I'm running a Dillion 550 and need to open up the case mouth a bit more for the Zero projectiles for sure.
Also noticing that my bullet seating fixture is mauling the tops of the bullets in the case of the softer larger diameter Zero product. Need to correct for that because instinct is telling me that the Zero are going to shoot pretty well if I compensate for the case constriction.
I'm shooting indoors until I get back down to NC later in the coming months. At 50 yards none of my loads will be worth a darn.
But thats part of the fun I guess.
I could see where compressing the HB skirt would destabilize the fired round.
I ordered that Lyman expander. $27 bucks...

 

[Al W.]

I like the Zero Swaged HBWC. Never had any leading problems with 2.8-3gr Bullseye. It's as accurate as anything I've ever tried and priced fairly. I think the last time I ordered it was less than $70 per k with free shipping.

I ordered 1k of the Zero , we'll see how that goes !

 

[Al W.]

Pretty much all of the swaged bullets are going to be in the 5-8 bhn range. The lube makes the biggest difference, assuming that you are running them between 750-800 fps. Not really a fan of the mica dry lube found on some off the commercial offerings.

.356 is probably too small for most s&w offerings...but the hbwc is very forgiving compared to traditional cast bullets. Most swaged hbwc's are going to mic. 357 or .358. Running 2.7 gr of BE should shoot well. Use wc brass (usually a cannelure 1/3 of the way from case mouth, sometimes 2 close together) if you can sort out a useful amount. Personally I use Zero or Hornady hbwc bullets pretty regularly.

Cast bullets can be an entirely different animal. Diameter, bhn, lube type, etc, etc. If you aren't up to casting your own, you are going to have to experiment. Even better, find a friend who already casts and partner up with them. That person will likely measure your throats and size accordingly. Then you get to experiment with a bunch of different variables in small batches, instead of buying large quantities from a commercial caster. They won't need to be very hard at all for bulseye type shooting.

If you have access to a Ransom Rest, it will take most of the guess work out of developing a 50 yard load.

My club has a Ransom Rest. Thats the next step. I really need to run a few rounds through all my guns in the RR, if only to objectify my impressions of their performance and repeatability, Basically I need to take a morning off and get to the range at the crack of dawn to set up and run it all down. Need to invest the time. I especially need to settle the matter with a 9mm I own. Its one of these 1911 framed , 9mm shooting , supposedly m match grade pistols that I have never been able to get target accuracy from . Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Al W.]

The most accurate HBWCs and WCs that I've fired were the swaged versions from Remington. They outshoot my cast WCs hands down.

That said, the big culprits for leading with softer alloys are:

1. Too small a diameter. Gas blow by before the bullet obturates will cause leading near the forcing cone and it just gets worse as you continue to shoot. Back in the day, the Colt revolvers generally has slightly smaller bores than Smiths and .356" bullets would shoot well in them.

2. Lubrication: With softer alloys, a good soft lube has been the best for me. Softer lubes will flow better and possibly vaporize to some extent when fired and that protects the bore better than the hard wax lubes found on most commercially cast bullets.

3. Velocity: Soft alloys are generally best shot at 700 to 800 fps for bullseye shooting.

4. Too hard an alloy: If the alloy is too hard it will not obturate at low pressures and velocities. The remedy here is to size them a bit large to mechanically obturate and seal the bore to prevent gas blow by.

5. Improper powder choice: Use Bullseye or Tightgroup to generate pressure early to help seal the bore right at the forcing cone. These powders, or their equivalents, will also provide pretty good accuracy with fairly low extreme spreads in velocity. 2.7 grains of Bullseye is the classic load for the 38 Special and in a good revolver will get you good scores at 25 yards and 50 yards using a good wadcutter. I like to light them off with the Remington 1 1/2 primer which seems to be optimize for target loads.

If you are buying bullets then consider the Speer or the Hornady HBWC versions. I do note that these lead a little bit in comparison with the Remington bullets, but they are far more readily available. If you buy the hard cast WCs, then try and buy a brand that is sized a bit large.

Penn Bullet company will cater to the hardness and diameter wishes of the customer. Also Missouri Bullet Company sells bullets of softer alloys.

For my cast bullets, I keep the alloy pretty soft at something like 2% tin and as little antimony as I can ween from the smelt by adding a lot of pure lead to the alloy. These obturate well, are accurate and don't lead at 800 fps.

So far for me and my S&W the Hornady and Speer won the race.
Thanks for your detailed response

 

[Al W.]

Ransom Rest at the range today

Well the Ransom rest was unequivocal.
I'll post some target shots some how later this evening.
The Delta were OK when they were of the corrected hardness.
So 3 cheers for Precision Delta.
And further more I tested the softer PD and that worked too, but with more leading.
The Speer shot well but ran behind the Hornady , which was slightly edged out by Zero.
I was shooting my 4" model 15 from 1954.
I also shot 2 cylinders in my 5" model 14 from 1959.
Just Zero and Hornady , because I ran out of time.
In my 14 which has been shot a whole lot the Zero still won the race for grouping the Hornady was stringing .
I'll get back to the club this week and do a series with the 15.
I cleaned between each set for each brand.
Scrubbed with a chore boy brush, then a plain brush , then CLP on a patch followed by a dry patch. So leading should be eliminated from factoring into the results.