.38 Military Model of 1899 Target

[DARE]

Bought this on GB tonight.
Model of 1899 Target. 6 1/2" barrel. Serial number 3554. Number matches on cylinder.
Seller called the gun VG. SCSW 4th says $600 for a VG gun. 2X to 3X for Target model.
Seller had a note that the barrel does not have a serial number. Based on that I decided to bid $900. Looking at the photos I do not see caliber marking on left side. Didn't think about that until after the auction. Also think the front sight does not match what SCSW says. Uh oh. What do I have? Did I pay too much?

 

[bruce5781]

Not all of the 1899 38's had a caliber marking. Maybe not a screaming bargain, but I don't think you got hurt. I almost jumped in the mix until I saw you were on it.
Edit: I wouldn't be too concerned about the missing serial on the barrel as long as it letters.

Regards
Bruce

 

[bruce5781]

Case in point, here are a couple of mine with no caliber markings.

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

 

[glowe]

Well, first thanks for outbidding me on that gun - just glad I bid you up. The lack of serial number is standard in 38 Model 1899s below serial number 7000. The gun has been altered from original in case you did not notice. The front sight base has been milled out for an oversized blade and the rear sight blade slot has been widened as well. There also seems to be something wrong with the barrel pin? It has bee either drilled out for a larger pin or both ends of the pin have been peened flat. Lastly, a serial number is on the barrel, so use a magnifying glass to find it. Contact Mike Priwer about the serial number on the barrel, being different from the frame.

 

[DARE]

Gary, 5 more bucks and you would have the gun. I put in a top bid of $900 and was not going higher. Glad you bid me up, huh? What a meanie you are. I sure would have liked the gun better at around $750.
Reading the description of the front sight in SCSW I could tell it was not right, but did not check that before I placed my bid. Lack of knowledge kept me from noticing the other things you mentioned.
Well, it is what it is. I own a new gun and that's not all bad. As Ralph Tremaine says, "you pays your money and you takes your chances."

 

[mikepriwer]

David

You'll find that a serial number actually is there - it's 3555, and your gun is 3554. The people who examined it had missed it, when they wrote up the description. There is a plausible explanation as to why the wrong barrel is on the gun, and it involves the gun 3555, that I own.

As to the caliber marking, they started about serial number 7300, so the gun is too early to have a caliber marking.

Regards, Mike

 

[DARE]

Mike,
Gary told me a little about the story on your 3555 gun.
Sounds like I have a slightly interesting gun. Probably it shipped from the factory with the wrong barrel number. Will get a letter ordered once I receive it.
Had no idea I was dealing with David Carroll and Jim Brewster.
Also did not know I was bidding against those famous S&W collectors Mike Priwer and Gary Lowe.

 

[mikepriwer]

David

Roy's book "History of Smith & Wesson", page 171 of the 1977 edition, has a picture of 3555, in the beginning of the 'K-Frame Target Models' section.

Regards, Mike

 

[DARE]

Got the gun today. Asked Roy for a ship date and put my letter request in the mail. Mentioned to Don about the serial number on the barrel not matching the gun. 3554 on the gun, 3555 on the barrel.
Included with the gun were some emails between a previous owner of the gun and Roy Jinks.
Roy said he thought the gun shipped that way since the 3555 barrel was not used on 3555.
3555 was special ordered with an 8" barrel. Mike Priwer owns that gun.

Also wonder what y'all think about the front sight. Is it a S&W sight? If so was this modification done by the factory?

Gary, the barrel pin does not look good. Does appear to have been beaten flat.

 

[DARE]

Ship date March 1900 per Roy.

 

[skwchock]

very nice. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed reading the thread.

 

[DARE]

Got my letter today. I think it is not correct.

In my letter request I called it .38 M&P 1st Model.
I noted it had adjustable sights. Don't think I used the word Target in the description, but probably should have.
Did not know if I should call it a Model of 1899, so did not. In Roy's book he said .38 Hand Ejector First Model, sometimes called the Model of 1899. The gun shipped to Philip B. Bekeart & Company, San Francisco, California on March 22, 1900.
The serial number on the gun is 3554, but the barrel is marked 3555.
3555 was a special order with an 8 inch barrel. Went to Dr. R. H. Sayre, Captain of the United States Shooting Team and famous Olympic shooter. Mike Priwer owns this gun.
A previous owner of my gun corresponded with Roy Jinks about the gun and barrel having different numbers. Roy said he thought the gun shipped that way and mentioned the history of the 3555 gun. I mentioned the discrepancy to Don Mundell in my letter request. You can read what Don said.

When I received the gun there was a copy of the email correspondence between Roy and the previous gun owner. Attached was a sticky note that said:
.32/20 Target 13169
Shipped to Phil Bekeart November 14, 1904 Per Roy
Don't know if that gun could have been associated with 3554 or 3555 in some way.
My gun and the .32/20 both went to Bekeart. Wonder where 3555 shipped?

 

[glowe]

Contact Don and have him correct the letter. He states that it shipped in 1900, two years before the Model 1902 was introduced. I am confused with the reference to a 32-20??

Forgot to add that you stated where 3555 went - shipped directly to Sayre.

 

[DARE]

Roy's email said 3555 went to Dr. Sayre. I did not mean to imply a direct shipment.
The information on the .32/20 was in the paperwork that came with my gun. Did not know why I had that, but thought maybe there was a connection between the guns.
Maybe the .32/20 was another gun for Dr. Sayre.
Since it shipped to Bekeart, maybe it was connected somehow to 3554.
I agree it is kind of confusing. Perhaps I am not presenting the information concisely.

 

[rct269]

Well while you may not be presenting the information concisely, I for damn sure am not reading it concisely! My knee-jerk reaction was, given the waste not want not philosophy extant within S&W, the special order for the 8" barrel gun was likely filled by way of a barrel swap, rather than start from scratch---and that somehow explains the barrel number mix-up.

SO--------------------- as soon as I get my concisely business back in gear, I'm going back and read all this again---this time with my eyes AND my
brain instead of just with my eyes. That'll likely take a while.

I should'a known better than to press on based on a knee-jerk---never mind I'm pretty sure I'll do it again!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Roy's email said 3555 went to Dr. Sayre. I did not mean to imply a direct shipment.

Yes it does. Names on the shipping log specify who the gun was sent to. In the case of Mike's gun, it was sent directly to Sayre and would have stated so on the ship log book. Individuals could order guns direct at any time back in the day.

 

[mikepriwer]

David

Here is the factory letter for 3555.

The letter shows a ship date of June 26 1900. Your 3554 shows a ship date of March 22 1900. This implies, to me, that the factory knew they would not be using the barrel on 3555, sometime before they built 3554. Presumably they probably used the barrel already on 3555, to build 3554.

Building 3555 for Dr Sayre was going to take some extra time, for a number of reasons. That was going to require special checkering, a special front sight, and the long 8" barrel. It may have required a special forging die, for one thing. There were rumors that Harry Pope rifled the barrel. He may have, BUT the rifling is not the Pope style, but rather that of the S&W factory. Factory rifling is 6 pairs of equally-sized lands and grove, with a clockwise twist. Pope's style has a counter-clockwise rotation, and has very narrow grooves and wide lands.


Regards, Mike

 

[mikepriwer]

David

There was, with the gun, a page that was email-communications back and forth between Roy and Max Hayward. Your comments sound as though you did not receive that page. The comments are about barrel 3555 being on your gun.

Regards, Mike

 

[DARE]

Fired the gun for the first time today.
A little bit low at 7 yards with wadcutters. Did not attempt a sight adjustment. Just fired a few rounds, did not measure group size. Reliable ignition single action and double action.
The double action on this gun is lighter than on any of my other S&W revolvers. Is this a characteristic of this model? I know the internal mechanism differs from later guns.

 

[dwh]

I have 3 revolvers using this action design and they are stiffer than my guns with the rebound slide.