38 or 357 Brass for Range Loads with 231

[cds43016]

I shoot a Smith & Wesson 686 SSR with 158 grain SNS poly coated cast bullets. I use Starline 357 brass, CCI 550 Magnum Primers over 4.5 grains of Universal. It’s a nice mild load and shoots accurately in my gun. Mostly I shoot at 25 yards.

I was recently given 8 pounds of 231 which I know is a excellent powder for 38 Special and reasonable one for mild loads in 357. It’s a faster powder than Universal so it may not be as ideal in the larger 357 case as Universal. I will soon have to order more brass from Starline. The main issue should I order 38 Special brass or 357?

I’m not interested in a high power load. The hole in paper is the same regardless of how hard the bullet hits the paper. I’m mainly interested in a very accurate easy shooting load for the range.

I’m trying to understand if a 38 Special is as accurate or more so in a 357 revolver as a 357 loading of comparable power. Theoretically it would seem not since the bullet has to go further to hit the forcing cone. This may be just an academic argument since there are so many other variables involved - mainly the shooter to be noticeable. However, it is a factor. Also the other disadvantage is the crud left in the chamber from the shorter case. How worrisome is this problem and how easy is it to clean? These are the only two disadvantages I can see.

The main advantage of the 38 seems to be a more efficient use of 231 powder since less is needed for comparable velocity. Also it would seem that on light loads like this, the 38 also has an advantage since it would seem to fill the case more. A 357 is made for power. and has the case capacity to accommodate it. There is a lot of air with even my 4.5 grains of Universal in a 357 case. This cannot be ideal for ignition and makes checking powder levels before seating a bullet even more critical. This is just one of the reasons I’m using Magnum Primers. However, it does shoot very well.

It looks like 38's are used more in competitions like IDPA since it allows for faster reloads with a speed loader. Accuracy is important but so is speed. Someday I will try one of these matches but my main goal is a very accurate range load (I would still like to meet the power factor for an IDPA Match just in case).

What is the better choice for my goals with the new powder?

From reading the forum it looks like many use 3,5 - 4 grains of 231 for the 38 with 158 grain bullets and about a half grain or so more for the 357. Does these ranges seem like a reasonable place to start? Any favorite Loads to start for both 38 and 357? I’d like to use CCI 500 Primers since I have several thousand of them. Naturally, I verify every load against published sources.

Thanks in advance for your help and guidance.

 

[cowboy4evr]

shooting 38spl cartridges in the 357 always raises the question of the " crud ring " . I have never had the problem but , I do thoroughly clean after each session .
YOu can always do what so many are doing ? Use the 357 mag case and just seat the bullet deeper . If using a swc , seat to the top of the shoulder or slightly over it using the std 38 spl loads for 231 . That eliminates the question of " distance " to the forcing cone and also eliminates possibility of crud ring build up causing problems later using 357 cases. Just some thoughts .

 

[SLT223]

You can load 38SPL in 357 brass no problem. You dont need mag primers. You can use the 38 powder charge or warm it up a bit if you like. Check the 231 load data on the hodgdon web site.

I dont own any 38s, only 357s, so it's easier for me to inventory only 357 brass. Thus I regularly load 38 in 357 brass.

 

[BuckeyeS&W]

I use 357mag brass in my 357's , it makes it a lot easier for me . You stated that you shoot 25yards I don't think you would see any difference in groups at that range between.38 and 357 mag rounds.

I don't use a lot of Win 231 in 357 mag loads but have had good results with 4.5-5.2 grains with CCI 500 primers and 158 grain MBC .38 Match LSWC bullets shot out of my 6" Python and my 4" S&W 66-8. The 4.5 grain load is easy to shoot but with my revolvers the 5-5.2 grain loadings shoot better groups.

 

[colt_saa]

I have used 231 in the 357 Magnum for a decade or more now. I ALWAYS use 357 Magnum brass in all my 357 Magnum revolvers. That way I do not have to worry about the crud ring issue.

If I were planning to shoot competition where fast reloads are an priority I would probably use 38 Short Colt brass in my revolvers to reduce the wiggle in the moonclips

With 158 grain hard cast lead SWCs I load 3.7 grains for the light loads. For the somewhat faster loads with 158 LSWCs or plated SWCs I load 6 grains.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Every gun being a law unto itself,your gun might prefer one or the other.My model 28 prefers Mag brass while my 586 thrives on the shorter brass.I could go on with each of my .357 but I'm sure you got the point.Serious and methodical testing will tell you.Be warned that the difference at the end might be the equivalent of a rat's hairs splitted in 2!
Qc

 

[OKFC05]

My standard IDPA load is HP38/Win231 in Fed .38 cases. Over the last 18 years, I've shot many tens of thousands of these loads in Model 686s and 66s. Currently I'm using 158gr RN Berry over 4.3gr to make 120PF for ICORE, which is more than enough for IDPA PF of 105 min.

Cases:
1. If you intend to shoot timed competition, get .38 cases. Any theoretical advantage of using .357 cases is not worth the extra time and hassle doing speed reloads. With revolvers, you'll spend as much time reloading as shooting in a stage. Get Safariland III or similar speed loaders for IDPA/SSR. Shortened and custom cases are prohibited, and use of loading clips requires major power.

2. Accuracy: In theory, the longer case might help, but if you can show me a set of targets that meets the statistical significance test doing a double-blind test of case length, you'll be the first. And for IDPA, speed reloads far outweigh an extra 1/4" of accuracy anyway.

3. The horrible 'CRUD RING." Get a Brownells "tornado brush" for your cylinder and remove the carbon and lead in seconds with regular use. Don't wait and use it once a year. My current revolver is a Model 66, and a .357 case drops in freely, as I recently demonstrated to someone who told me "if you shoot .38s in it, you can't load .357s."

Powder:
HP38 means "hodgdon powder for .38s."
IDPA revolver shooters favor HP38 first, Titegroup second, but any of a baker's dozen of medium powders will get the job done.

Primers: Mag primers are not needed but do no harm with the medium powders.

Just go try IDPA and you will soon learn that reliability is most important, and gun handling is second, especially with a revolver. You are probably accurate enough now, just now quick enough. Remember, it is less important how fast you can pull the trigger, compared to how much time you waste in the gun handling. And you might want to start speed drills on paper plates at shorter ranges than 25yds. Most defensive shooting, and 75% of IDPA shots, are 15yds or less.

IDPA Match Director and IDPA/SSR shooter

 

[Wise_A]

Couple things.

I have two loads for .38 Special. One is a 148-grain DEWC over 2.5 grains of WST. The other is a 158-gr LSWC over 2.8 grains of Bullseye.

Both are coincidentally .3cc charges. Neither one comes anywhere near filling the case. Both have relatively inconsistent velocities compared to hotter charges ("hotter" being as little as 3.0 to 3.2 gr of BE).

Both are also supremely accurate with exceptionally mild recoil. More accurate, in fact, then the hotter loads with more consistent velocities.

If I were you and interested in wringing the most accuracy out of the gun, I would load with .357 Magnum brass. Don't worry about "efficient" use of powder. On a light .38 or .357, the price of powder is barely as much as the primer, and a fraction of the bullet.

If you were doing IDPA/IPSC/ICORE/whatever and needed to make a certain PF, that changes things. Since PF is measured by chrono'ing randomly-chosen ammunition, it's in your best interest to get consistent velocities. So it would be better to use .38 Spl brass to achieve that while minimizing recoil.

 

[38SPL HV]

I would go ahead and order 357 Mag brass. Using published WW data, I've used 5.5 grs 231 behind 158 gr SWC (Speer, Hornady or Everglades SWC) - it shot fine. However, I prefer Unique for all my lead loads in 357 cases and like 6.5 grs Unique behind 158 gr cast LSWC.

I do shot more 38 Spl+P's in my 357 Magnum, and never find a problem cleaning out the so called dreaded crud. Hoppes 9 and brass bristle bush will do the trick every time. You can get real fancy and get a steel cylinder brush also, but I prefer the brass ones.

4.7 grs 231 and 158 gr SWC is a nice +P loading you may want to consider as a standard range round - good accuracy and a little more "bite" than standard 38 Spl. I also like 5.6 grs Power Pistol or 5.2 grs Unique with the same bullet - both +P loadings and accurate.

 

[rwsmith]

The ONLY reason.....

The only reason .357 brass is a tad longer than .357 is to keep from putting .357 cartridges in a .38 gun. The 'extra capacity' amounts to very, very little. So most non-magnum powders are suitable for both. I load .38 HBWCs target and any other loads in .357 cases for my 686.

I use my .38 cases in the .38.

About the only difference in accuracy in shooting a .38 out of a .357 gun would be that slight extra jump the bullet has to make to clear the chamber. In other words, not much.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I am of the belief you can use either case for what you are doing. If you want only 1 case buy the .357 cases. If your only concern was W231 being faster and not filling the case don't worry about that, W231 does just fine it the slightly longer case.

I'm wondering why you are using a magnum primer? Your charge of Universal is not even in the .38 Special +P range so it's not pressure. Just curious???

 

[johngalt]

W231/HP38 work fine for target loads in .357 cases. I used to do that before switching to bullseye, which also works great.

For light target loads, I've found faster powders like w231 and bullseye to be more accurate than universal/unique and slower powders.

 

[cds43016]

I am of the belief you can use either case for what you are doing. If you want only 1 case buy the .357 cases. If your only concern was W231 being faster and not filling the case don't worry about that, W231 does just fine it the slightly longer case.

I'm wondering why you are using a magnum primer? Your charge of Universal is not even in the .38 Special +P range so it's not pressure. Just curious???

The Hodgdon web site is where I got the load. The Hodgdon load data indicated magnum primers. I was curious about this also and called them.

They indicated that when they develop loads for a cartridge they use one primer for all load development to keep things simple. And because they also list slow powders, they use magnum primers. They aren't necessary they said for Universal and faster powders but recommended it anyway because it should allow more complete and reliable ignition in an air filled case. They aren't needed and when I go to 231 regardless of the case I use, I will use the CCI500 standard primers.

The current Universal load shoots just fine with the magnum primers.