38 +P+ 110gr JHP Treasury Ammo Test

[BreakerDan]

As most of you who read any of my posts know, I am not really a fan of light 38s and have heard terrible anecdotes about the Treasury load. I generally use the 38+P+ 147 LEO. However, since reading about armsmaster 270's story about his encounter with an armed subject and how the "T" load saved his life, I decided to test them out for velocity and penetration. Winchester still makes the round in the Ranger LE line, but my Treasury Ammo is the vintage 1983 thing.


Test Gun: S&W Model 28-2 4"

Winchester: Ammo in white and red 50 round boxed marked 38 Special 110gr JHP for Law Enforcement Only with the US treasury dept. specs. and the back. 15% Overpressure

Headstamped 83 WCC +P+
Velocity: 1068fps
Penetrated 2 of the 1 gallon size milk jugs filled with water and was found wedged between #2 and #3 jug. Smooth energy transfer between the jugs.
Expanded to .55

Federal
Headstamped FC LE
Velocity 998fps
Pentrated only 1 of the 1 gallon jugs and barely into the plastic quart size milk jug behind it. Energy transfer occured in the first jug and made a huge water spray. Expanded to .56

Both slugs only peeled backed to the jacket mouth and stopped. Good thing it has a lot of exposed lead or it would not expand at all.

The Treasury Load was carried by the Border Patrol from 1980 until it was pulled from service in 1984. Many law enforcement agencies issued or authorized its use including the Cali Hwy Patrol. The "other" duty load at the time was the W-W or Remington 38+P LSWC-HP commonly known as the FBI load. It was carried by the FBI, and Dallas TX PD to name a few.

It might appear that this load might be ok for home defense against a small target, but this load based on my test takes the cake for being a poor police duty load due to lack of tactical penetration. I know some will disagree strongly and I can understand as some have used it and it worked. It was certainly better than the 158 RNL that many agencies replaced with the "T" Load.

Anyone who carried the round or used it please feel free to chime in.
I am open minded and know that milk jugs and chronographs dont simulate the real world on the street. If you liked/disliked it -let me know please. Also, anyone who can post photos of this stuff would be appreciated as well as I have only one box to compare to.

 

[xcop]

T load

I have carried both as well as chrono tested both. First your Federal velocity is way below anything I have ever seen except when fired from a j frame snub with the 1 7/8 barrel. Between the two my testing of different lots over the years shows lows around the 1068 you got but from 4 in 38's not 357's and highs up to around 1180. The last test I did had the Winchester at 1076 from a 3in magnum sp101 and the Federal at 1068. I find that usually the Winchester is a hair faster. In the shootings we had with the loads both worked well from snubs but the Federal had a tendency to fragment badly when fired from 4in or longer barrels.......something the Winchester did not do. The Federal also couldnt penetrate a car door at all. Keep in mind that Federal seemed to change that bullet every year and I believe that the FC LE headstamp ended in 1980-1981. My original issue was the federal in 1980 stamped FC LE and the bullet was not skived and had less exposed lead than later production. The remainder of the Federal I have is marked FC and the last 2 digits of the year...ie FC 85 etc. Funny thing with this load is a lot of people who used it loved it and I know many who got one shot stops and many were fatal. The Border Patrol used the Federal version for a short time and were less than thrilled. It is a load that many people swear by and the rest swear at.

 

[flop-shank]

There's no reason that 110 grs. ain't enough in a .38 +P, or +P+. I will say that with that light of a weight, Bullet design has to be spot on, or underpenetration is a real possibility. I wouldn't want to run a lighter bullet in that caliber though.

BreakerDan, as admirable of a student as you are of this stuff (O.K., nerd, and I'm guilty too) you should get a block of Perma-Gel, or start running 10% gel so your results are comparable to other gel tests online. FWIW, I never ask anyone to do something I haven't already done myself or wouldn't be willing to do.

Thanks for the write up.

 

[cocojo]

I used the treasury load +P+ 110 jhp. When this load was out, it was the round to use. You have to remember that bullet performance and design was just being born. This was as good as it got for 38 power. The bullet design is of old technology. I still have three or four boxes of the stuff new. I used it in my S&W 66 and model 60 back in the early eighties. We also used 158 SWC HP's for a time. By the way my non +P S&W model 60 never blew up from it. By the way it chronied from my 2 inch at 1050.

 

[David Sinko]

Is 1050 FPS really the best you can expect from 110 gr. +P+ in a 2" barrel? I can safely exceed that with 158 gr. bullets in .38 Special and 147 gr. bullets in the 9mm, both out of 2" barrels. Is it because the 110 gr. bullet is simply way too light for high velocity out of the short barrel or the factories are holding back, even at so-called +P+ pressure levels? At this velocity the light bullet would appear to have no advantage. I have never been a fan of light bullets and have no experience handloading them.

Dave Sinko

 

[stiab]

Winchester: Ammo in white and red 50 round boxed marked 38 Special 110gr JHP for Law Enforcement Only with the US treasury dept. specs. and the back.
Headstamped 83 WCC +P+
Velocity: 1068fps

Thanks BreakerDan for another informative post based upon actual test results. The 110 grain Winchester Treasury loads I tested produced very similar results: 1077 fps from a 4" M15. Mine are older than yours, headstamped 73. I have long though that the many internet references to these loads being super hot were incorrect, and mostly urban legend.

 

[Landric]

Here are some pics of the box of Winchester Treasury Loads that I have. My brass is stamped WCC +P+ 90.

 

[judge]

The 110JHP used by Treasury (Super-Vel and later Federal) was tested and designed to dump all the energy into the target, without exiting the target. The wound cavity was replicated using "gel blocks" and with the aid of high speed photography. The damage recorded during testing indicated that the ammo would be very effective in close quarters man-to-man combat situations. The criteria was not to penetrate car doors, windshields, or engine blocks. It was and is strictly a man stopper which can do considerable damage. Don't get in front of one.

 

[roaddog28]

Any chances of finding some?

roaddog28

 

[cocojo]

Those are the same boxes I have. In it's time we though we had the right combo. Believing in what you carry along with good tactics is what wins gunfights. We though we were carrying the best.

 

[armsmaster270]

Breakerdan:
we progressed from 158LRN to personally bought 110 supervels to issue FBI load to the issue Treasury Load then transitioned to the 9mm.
We used the Federal 110gr and all our headstamps were FC top and 2 digit year on the bottom as in military ammo none of ours was FC LE.
The winchester box is printed 15-20 % overload from +P. Both fed and win should clock close to each other.

 

[armsmaster270]

Here is some

The win +P+ should clock @ 1218fps out of a 4" 38 barrel there will be loss out of a .357 barrel.
Both the win and federal should clock close to each other
the win +P+ is 15-20% or 15% above +P pressure depending on when the box was printed
Here is more info on the wound track

 

[BreakerDan]

Thanks for all the information/pictures armsmaster270.
Very informative post. Looks like if you dont have to shoot
through a barrier, this load would be fine. You guys are slowly
changing my thoughts on the 38 110gr loadings.
I have always been a fan of the FBI 158 LSWC-HP,
but the Treasury load is looking better.
Also too, 38 ammunition has come a long way
in 30 years.

 

[flop-shank]

Nice shot, Armsmaster. How long did your assailant remain combative after getting shot?

 

[armsmaster270]

After the shot he went 1/2 step, stumbled and went down. Seeing that he landed in the felony prone position, I cuffed him & checked his carotid with neg pulse detected. When the Sgt and backup got there he was uncuffed and the ambulance checked him and left without him.

 

[mjking]

Hello,
I came across a S&W Model 10 38 with 12 cartridges which my friend says came from a box saying Law enforcement only. The headstamp reads as follows:

WCC+P+ 9 8

It looks like nickel brass, then a small strip of copper, with a hollow point on top. Can anyone tell me what the 9, and then the 8 mean after the WCC+P+ ?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Hello,
I came across a S&W Model 10 38 with 12 cartridges which my friend says came from a box saying Law enforcement only. The headstamp reads as follows:

WCC+P+ 9 8

It looks like nickel brass, then a small strip of copper, with a hollow point on top. Can anyone tell me what the 9, and then the 8 mean after the WCC+P+ ?

Thanks,
Mike

The 9 and 8 are the date of manufacture i.e. 1998.

 

[RDub]

Hello

A while back a buddy of mine gave me a box of those Win +P+ loads to shoot and see what they do.

On two separate occasions I shot a group of those, along with the other stuff I was doin..

They were shot out of a 4" 686 at 25 yards, and the ambient temp was in the 40°- 50°'s. On a warmer day velocities might approach 1100fps, depending on how temperature sensitive this particular ammo is.

I was pleased to see that this ammo produced some very tight groups, although it shot a bit lower than everything else. Not a big deal, a minor sight adjustment would fix that.

Back in the early '80's I still had some of the L.A.S.D. issue rounds we used and ran some of them across my new Oehler 33 chronograph. They were a .38 Special 110gr JHP +P+ made by Federal. They clocked 1100 fps on a warm day out of a 4" Mod 15.

 

[captbahbah]

Friend of mine got into a shoot out in Queens, NY a couple of years back. Robbers pushed in as he was opening check cashing place. Forced to open safe. Think he said there were three of them. None wore masks. They were armed with "large automatics". First opportunity, he drew his S&W 36 loaded with 110's, stepped left and crouched and fired all five rounds. Two hits on one of the bad guys. They wrestled the revolver away from him and took off. The guy he shot didn't "act like he was shot". The guy that got hit was found in Brooklyn, NY bleeding out, though. My friend should have been shooting 158 grain semi-wadcutters. That was our department load when he retired. He bought 110's from a gun store because he ran out of ammo. He was never a guns and ammo guy. Just did his job for 20 + years and retired. His default training kicked in: stepped left and crouched, punched the gun out and fired. Should have had a heavier round. Bottom line: he survived. We now use the Speer God Dot 135 grain +P round. I sent him several boxes right after his shooting. He ended up getting a S&W M&P .40.

 

[sheriffoconee]

In the early 80's a friend of mine in a jurisdiction inside of what was then mine shot an armed robber with one round of the Winchester 110 +p+. I worked the OIS. IIRC the round got some liver, and lodged in the muscles near his spine..the surgeons left it where it was. X rays showed very little expansion, however, upon being shot the bad guy crumpled to the ground, thereby ending the gunfight.
His bosses in the PD were unimpressed, and were looking for a new round to shoot....they settled on the FBI Load, which was used to good effect in two OIS shootings within the next few years. Shortly thereafter, self loading pistols were adopted...

 

[armsmaster270]

I didn't care for the WW 110 +P+ compared to the Federal 110 +P+ as the Federal had more of a hollow cavity Here is the slug taken from the Rapist I shot Through the sternum, heart, lower lobe of the lung stopping just under the skin in the back.

 

[nightshade2x]

About a year ago I ran across a stash of ammo owned by a recently deceased FBI agent who in retirement became a RSO for the qualifiying range. The story as I understand it was that the local cops and other agents would give him all their "extra" or left over ammo at the range. This guy had amassed quite a stockpile of unique stuff.

I ended up with boxes of the "FBI load" from each manufacturer As well as some "Treasury loads" in addition to many other boxes of unique ammo.

Here's a few pictures of some of the stuff I picked out that now resides in my stash. These might be of interest to this thread. Some of you may not have seen these loads or boxes/part#'s before.

Federal "FBI loads"

The Remington's are on the left - (2) boxes of .38 Spl. (+P) Part# R38S12

In this picture they are the Winchester Western's on the right - 38 Special 158 gr. Hollow Point +P Part# X38SPD, next to them you will see the "Treasury load" - Winchester .38 Special +P+ 147 Gr. JHP Part#Q4296

Also an interesting load is the Federal Premium .38 Special High Velocity (+P+) 147 Gr. Hydra-Shok JHP Part# P38HS2G which is kind of a "competitor" to the "Treasury load".

Here's all of what I purchased from this lot.

I hope this was of interest to you all. I suppose I could take pictures of the individual rounds if someone desired.

I'm not going to tell you what I paid for all of this as it would make ya'll sick.

Have fun and be safe.
Nightshade2x

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Seriously, another 2 year old thread brought back from the dead for a second time!!!

 

[JayBird686]

Sorry if this has been answered already, but does anyone make an equivilant of this round or the FBI load today?

I have Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr +P which state on the box they go 1090 ft per second at the muzzle. Seem like they would be similar to the treasury load in theory.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Nightshade2x, I'd be interested in seeing a better photo of the end label and the round from the Fed 38Spl +P+ that's marked "for law enforcement only" that's to the left of the Fed 38Spl Match box.

 

[pete950]

Sorry if this has been answered already, but does anyone make an equivilant of this round or the FBI load today?

I have Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr +P which state on the box they go 1090 ft per second at the muzzle. Seem like they would be similar to the treasury load in theory.

Sgammo.com has them in stock for $21.95 a box of 50, right now

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
There was an FBI load that was used in their M-66 and M-65 revolvers.
It was made up in 38 cases but was closer to mid-range 357
pressures.
This ammo was made up this way to help with the short extractors
on the 2 1/2 in M-66's ][38s extract easier as they are shorter]
Also this ammo was not avable or allowed to be given to any
other group or officer as the high pressures could damage
smaller 38's .
I suspect that it was the old 38-44 load or similar...just a different bullet..
Also this was before +P and +P+ was used.

 

[ddixie884]

I understand the Texas Department of Public Safety had 158gr jacketed bullets loaded over 12gr 2400 in .38spl cases in the old days. The issue weapon was the M-28, probably didn't worry too much about pressure.

 

[TexasRaider]

I understand the Texas Department of Public Safety had 158gr jacketed bullets loaded over 12gr 2400 in .38spl cases in the old days. The issue weapon was the M-28, probably didn't worry too much about pressure.

Dixie,
Unless they carried that load in the '50's, which I'd be unaware of, the load that the Texas Highway Patrol carried for decades was the Federal 125 grain SJHP screaming around 1500 fps and thumping an impressive 590 ft/lbs of 'boom' on the bad guy's side of the brouhaha.

They carried this until they switched over to Sig Sauer DA/SA pistols in 1991, specifically the P220 and P226, which were loaded with crappy Ranger SXT JHP's (Black Talon by any other name) in 230 gr for the .45 ACP and 147 gr. for the 9mm, respectively.

Both of these were quite wisely dropped like a muffin with a booger on it, around about 1997 or so. That's when they went to one weapon, the DA/SA Sig P226 in 357Sig loaded with CCI Lawman 125 gr, which they still carry today, because it is very, very effective. I believe it was around 2004 or 2005 that they slipped over to the same gun/round, except it was the Sig DAK in P226.

Not sure if the whole debacle with the Smith & Wesson M&P's in 9mm is going to stick or not, apparently they fell apart like Tinker Toys during range work and are on hiatus. Sadly, if they come back, the plan was to load them with 147 gr 9mm JHP's, which didn't work for **** before, so not sure why they're returning to a bad idea that was wisely ditched over 15 years ago.

Anyway, long response to your question, but no, I don't think they ever issued a .38 load for their S&W 28 Highway Patrolman wheelguns.

However, I will endeavor to find out...

 

[shawn mccarver]

It might appear that this load might be ok for home defense against a small target, but this load based on my test takes the cake for being a poor police duty load due to lack of tactical penetration.

The Treasury Load (110 grain +P+) was indeed a poor load for penetration. I will simply point out, however, that the load was developed in response to the now discredited US Government NIJ tests which created the RII (Relative Incapacitation Index), which if I recall, placed too much emphasis on temporary wound cavity and too little emphasis on deep penetration to get to vital organs. The load did what was expected of it. Unfortunately, the wrong assumptions were made, and that is why no one uses the loads which emphasize temporary wound cavity by early expansion at the expense of deep penetration to get to vital organs.