I have Federal Premium .38 +P+ 147gr Hydra Shock and Hornady .357 Mag 125 gr Critical Defense ammo for my .357 S&W 627.
Which is the better Self Defense ammo for my gun?
Which is the better Self Defense ammo for my gun?
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.38 +P+ or .357 Hornady Critical Defense
- Thread starter dbarker5669
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Funny. You'll get all sorts of replies. Mine will be as weird as anyone else's. "Neither" is my answer. Standard loads of Hydra Shock or Critical Defense ammunition in .38 Special is sufficient, or go to the next step up to +P. After that all you're doing is risking over penetration without adding any benefit to your self defense set up..
YMMV.
And we all have opinions, etc.
Sidebar: If you're in the bear woods go with the .357 Magnum. That's where the power might be required, bears, wolves, lions, depending on where you meander in the great and sometimes still wild country.
***GRJ***
YMMV.
And we all have opinions, etc.
Sidebar: If you're in the bear woods go with the .357 Magnum. That's where the power might be required, bears, wolves, lions, depending on where you meander in the great and sometimes still wild country.
***GRJ***
legelegel
Member
I have a S&W Model 60 (no dash) (1.875 in.) .38 special that I have owned since the late 1970s.
What ammunition would be recommended for it? I have been told that there is no need for me to purchase a S&W Model 60 chambered in .357, because there is not that much difference in the power that can be produced in a short barrel .38 special.
What ammunition would be recommended for it? I have been told that there is no need for me to purchase a S&W Model 60 chambered in .357, because there is not that much difference in the power that can be produced in a short barrel .38 special.
Between the two rounds on the table, it's an easy choice: Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain .357.
Hornady makes excellent products overall. Their CD line is quality. The CD .357 load is not full house.
+P+ has no meaningful measure. I don't mess with it.
Hornady makes excellent products overall. Their CD line is quality. The CD .357 load is not full house.
+P+ has no meaningful measure. I don't mess with it.
Rpg
Member
I suggest using whichever you shoot best.
After you've shot a minimum of 100 rounds of each, make your choice based on what you can do with the ammo.
After you've shot a minimum of 100 rounds of each, make your choice based on what you can do with the ammo.
legelegel
Member
How about the Hornady 38 Special 110 gr FTX Critical Defense or the 38 Special +P 110 gr FTX Critical Defense?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA1SNpuh1ns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtr-2t7PDcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA1SNpuh1ns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtr-2t7PDcI
legelegel
Member
Biggfoot44
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Huh . That a rather , ah , unique binary choice, unless you just happen to have a case of each on hand.
Strictly on the asked question , I would probably select the .357 Crit Duty, but : 1. At one level it comes down to what you can confortably / effectivly control with your gun in your hands. Unless I'm having a prematurely senior moment , a M627 is a normal N Frame in stainless. Recoil will be much less a factor than in the smaller snubs that are usually inquired about in this regard.
2. There's a cpl dozen defensive rounds that would come to mind before either. ( Not that I wish to get shot with either , yada yade ).
IF you were wishing .38+P level performance ( yes the 147 +P+ is mild in vel similar to most +P's ) , the two top choices are old school , but still top performer 158 LHP , or 135 Gold Dot . I'm also know to use CorBon 110jhp +P , but it's a matter of taste and philosophy.
.357 loads , it really depends of what level of recoil and blast suits your preference. And wether defense against two legged felons , or small bears and large angry livestock run amok. (Any major brand) full power 125jhp will be very effective . And have signifigent sound , fire , and recoil. Medimum velocity 125 and 110jhp will have similar recoil. I haven't check to spec sheets this week who's offering what in a medimum 125 , but the Golden Sabre is one such. Some people feel the 110jhp UNDERpenetrates . A matter of taste , but no overpenetration worries. And WWB 110 is cheap enough in the 50rd boxes to actually shoot a meaningful amount in practice.
And I suppose the Crit Duty/ Defense is well enough made , but CorBon PowerBall has been my preference for that niche since before CD was a gleam in Horndy's eye, and never saw a reason to switch.
Strictly on the asked question , I would probably select the .357 Crit Duty, but : 1. At one level it comes down to what you can confortably / effectivly control with your gun in your hands. Unless I'm having a prematurely senior moment , a M627 is a normal N Frame in stainless. Recoil will be much less a factor than in the smaller snubs that are usually inquired about in this regard.
2. There's a cpl dozen defensive rounds that would come to mind before either. ( Not that I wish to get shot with either , yada yade ).
IF you were wishing .38+P level performance ( yes the 147 +P+ is mild in vel similar to most +P's ) , the two top choices are old school , but still top performer 158 LHP , or 135 Gold Dot . I'm also know to use CorBon 110jhp +P , but it's a matter of taste and philosophy.
.357 loads , it really depends of what level of recoil and blast suits your preference. And wether defense against two legged felons , or small bears and large angry livestock run amok. (Any major brand) full power 125jhp will be very effective . And have signifigent sound , fire , and recoil. Medimum velocity 125 and 110jhp will have similar recoil. I haven't check to spec sheets this week who's offering what in a medimum 125 , but the Golden Sabre is one such. Some people feel the 110jhp UNDERpenetrates . A matter of taste , but no overpenetration worries. And WWB 110 is cheap enough in the 50rd boxes to actually shoot a meaningful amount in practice.
And I suppose the Crit Duty/ Defense is well enough made , but CorBon PowerBall has been my preference for that niche since before CD was a gleam in Horndy's eye, and never saw a reason to switch.
Dogfish357
Member
I'd say choose the one that you shoot best out of your particular revolver.
357 Magnum Critical Defense is that round for me in my model 60. The accuracy and extra oomph from that pairing leaves me extremely confident, and I think extra confidence goes a long way in a stressful situation.
However, it does kick a bit more than 38 Special +P. Still very controllable though. Of course, not something I think you'll be worried about with your 627 haha.
Good luck!
357 Magnum Critical Defense is that round for me in my model 60. The accuracy and extra oomph from that pairing leaves me extremely confident, and I think extra confidence goes a long way in a stressful situation.
However, it does kick a bit more than 38 Special +P. Still very controllable though. Of course, not something I think you'll be worried about with your 627 haha.
Good luck!
Large frame, stainless revolver can easily handle 125gr .357 mag ammo....
.357 mag beats .38+P+ every time!!
I carry an L frame 686 snub for defensive use, specifically because it can handle .357 magnum loads with ease.
Even from a short barrel, .357 retains much more ft lbs of energy and fps than any .38+P loadings.
I've been in combat, and I know that decibel levels, muzzle flash and recoil are NOT factors when your adrenaline is pumping.
.357 mag beats .38+P+ every time!!
I carry an L frame 686 snub for defensive use, specifically because it can handle .357 magnum loads with ease.
Even from a short barrel, .357 retains much more ft lbs of energy and fps than any .38+P loadings.
I've been in combat, and I know that decibel levels, muzzle flash and recoil are NOT factors when your adrenaline is pumping.
Biggfoot44
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Well *mostly* . The flash willprobably not be noticed , and the noise likewise , until you get to really stupid levels ( ie snub nosed full power .44Mag or rifle cal SBR fired in a small enclosed space where you get major perment inner ear damage.
No you won't be bothered by recoil in the meaning causing discomfort to your hand. BUT adrenilne won't repeal the laws of physicS, and there is a point where it can slow your time in repeat shots , or in acquiring a different target( threat ) "enough" to be meaningful. It's a tradeoff and judgement call of how huch is meaningful , but there is a point where it can be.
Back in the revolver era , the frequently cited example was full power .44Mag. Before the days of scandium , or small frames , it wasn't uncommon for experienced shooters to be able to shoot accurately without pain. But rapid fire DA was a whole 'nuther story. Never say never , and a handfull of LEO did manage to get full points on the old 7yd PPC type stage ( 12rd in 25 second , from leather including reload ) , but they were living legands. And the most famous one at the time , a cpl years later figured he was better served by being able to shoot tiny clusters much faster with a M1955 than just making the Q standard with M29 .
I know few people CCW N Frames , but same principle potentially comes into play with things like scandium , .357 Mag J frames , subcompact polymer .40's , etc
No you won't be bothered by recoil in the meaning causing discomfort to your hand. BUT adrenilne won't repeal the laws of physicS, and there is a point where it can slow your time in repeat shots , or in acquiring a different target( threat ) "enough" to be meaningful. It's a tradeoff and judgement call of how huch is meaningful , but there is a point where it can be.
Back in the revolver era , the frequently cited example was full power .44Mag. Before the days of scandium , or small frames , it wasn't uncommon for experienced shooters to be able to shoot accurately without pain. But rapid fire DA was a whole 'nuther story. Never say never , and a handfull of LEO did manage to get full points on the old 7yd PPC type stage ( 12rd in 25 second , from leather including reload ) , but they were living legands. And the most famous one at the time , a cpl years later figured he was better served by being able to shoot tiny clusters much faster with a M1955 than just making the Q standard with M29 .
I know few people CCW N Frames , but same principle potentially comes into play with things like scandium , .357 Mag J frames , subcompact polymer .40's , etc
Don't judge it.....
Don't judge it just how well you shoot it. Try some fast follow up shots. Which one shoots better, now?
Don't judge it just how well you shoot it. Try some fast follow up shots. Which one shoots better, now?
Biggfoot44
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This Forum behaves strangely on my crackberry , and sometime both my posts and other people's posts take a long time to be visable to me , so sometimes things can seem out of sequence.
Meanwhile at Legelegel and his faithful M60 :
I would council that you be well served in the J Frame catagory with your .38Spl M60 . Not becausE a 2in bbl .357 isn't capable of higher velocities in the abstract , but because the right .38+P loads are capable of generating plenty enough recoil to be close enough to the upper threashold of controlability with concealment grips. ( Yes there are various light bullets , medium pressure .357 loads that will have similar to a 158+P. Open to debate if said either give meaningful increase at all , or if any , enough to justify a new gun.) ( If this were discussing medium frames , or even SP101's I'd agrue the other way , but in the drifted portion of the thread M60 was specified. ).
But in my broken record old school recomendation - 158+P LHP , or 135 Gold Dot.
Meanwhile at Legelegel and his faithful M60 :
I would council that you be well served in the J Frame catagory with your .38Spl M60 . Not becausE a 2in bbl .357 isn't capable of higher velocities in the abstract , but because the right .38+P loads are capable of generating plenty enough recoil to be close enough to the upper threashold of controlability with concealment grips. ( Yes there are various light bullets , medium pressure .357 loads that will have similar to a 158+P. Open to debate if said either give meaningful increase at all , or if any , enough to justify a new gun.) ( If this were discussing medium frames , or even SP101's I'd agrue the other way , but in the drifted portion of the thread M60 was specified. ).
But in my broken record old school recomendation - 158+P LHP , or 135 Gold Dot.
model 19/39
US Veteran
38 or 357?
I believe you would be well served by either load but in an N frame 627 I would opt for the magnum load. The Hornady Critical Defense/Critical Duty are both loaded with a low flash powder and the 627, by virtue of it's bigger frame and higher weight, would easily mitigate the recoil received from the magnum load. Two other loads I might suggest are the 158 grain LSWHP 38+P and 357 low recoil/low flash loads from Buffalo Bore. My two house guns are a model 15 and a model 14 and are loaded with the 158's. Both my model 19's normally carry the 357 load but I do admit to having a box of the Hornady 125 grain magnums ready to go if needed. The ultimate decision is yours, go with what you are the most comfortable with.
I believe you would be well served by either load but in an N frame 627 I would opt for the magnum load. The Hornady Critical Defense/Critical Duty are both loaded with a low flash powder and the 627, by virtue of it's bigger frame and higher weight, would easily mitigate the recoil received from the magnum load. Two other loads I might suggest are the 158 grain LSWHP 38+P and 357 low recoil/low flash loads from Buffalo Bore. My two house guns are a model 15 and a model 14 and are loaded with the 158's. Both my model 19's normally carry the 357 load but I do admit to having a box of the Hornady 125 grain magnums ready to go if needed. The ultimate decision is yours, go with what you are the most comfortable with.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I think you point to THE most important aspect people most frequently overlook. People tend to always talk about being able to handle it, practicing enough, or getting used to blast and recoil, but, as you said, it's physics, not just a subjective perception like discomfort that can be trained away. But of course the physics will vary based on muscle strength and body weight of the shooter.
So the OP should ideally get enough of each ammo type he's considering and find out by actual trying them out which produces the best speed/accuracy combination.
ironhead7544
Member
Recoil with full 125 gr loads is not bad in an N frame. They are quite noisy.
I would use the full 125 gr 357 Magnum loads for serious uses.
I would use the full 125 gr 357 Magnum loads for serious uses.
walkin' trails
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I have no idea how effective the HS 147 +P+ load has faired in real world gunfights, but I've heard it suggested that. Based on bullet configuration and velocity, it is similar the the 147 HS in 9mm. That said, there are better loads out there today. Back when 357 was a common carry piece, the Federal or Remington 125 SJHP was king of the hill. Of course they were something like 1450 fps. I would put any of the modern bullet designs ahead of the HS, but shot placement is the most critical factor regardless.
There is a lot of very good information here. During my 30 yr. LEO career I was involved in more than one deadly encounter. In each case I used our issued round, the FBI +P .38, 158 grain, and it worked. There are a lot of choices for self defense ammo, pick what works best for you when you practice, stick w/it and hope you never have to use it in a real situation.
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S&W SS Revolvers
Member
Consider your surroundings IE: paper thin apartment / condo walls vs. a brick home and anything between. My wife has .38 Spl + P Hydra Shok's in hers , I have .357 Hydra Shoks in my room and a lot more experience. We have room around us in a brick home. I wish I knew a buddy in CO w/a Governor just so she/we could try one. Oh well, even if We/I did we could not legally try it at the range due to Colorado's draconian gun laws. What a darn shame...
