.38 S&W M&P help, please (Updated with letter)

[Texas Star]

Brad-

Been thinking more. If your gun has that hole plugged and wasn't reblued after the war...Might it be released here after the war by S&W? They were plugging lanyard holes from wartime frames and making civilian guns. Maybe this was a leftover .38-200 that was surplus to a foreign order, so they sold it here. ??

Nothing else makes a lot of sense, as far as I can see.

Let us know how it shoots, and what your handload is. Can you get 180-200 grain bullets? Surely you know that Buffalo Bore makes a hot .38 S&W load. But its 125 grain bullet probably doesn't shoot to the sights.

 

[Absalom]

Besides the two South African contracts, not all of whose guns actually ended up in South Africa, there is exactly one BPC contract listed in Pate's chart, from 6/17/40, for 4,879 guns in .38/200 with 4" barrels.

Australia, Canada, and South Africa had their own contracts during the pre-Lend-Lease period, but of course in the course of the war these different streams of guns did not remain strictly separated; I myself have a BSR that first went into British service and later ended up with the Australians.

Now that is a maximum number; Pate seems to have based his chart on contracts, not actual deliveries. Just recently over at the Colt Forum, we determined with the help of the Colt archivist that of the 49,764 Colt OP 38/200s that Pate lists, Colt only ever shipped 18,252.

Unless there is a weird left-behind story like Texas Star suggests, I would think the gun is one of those 4,879. The serial fits in the general time frame. It either ended up elsewhere but Britain, or made it back here through other than regular surplus channels. The third alternative would be a refinish that removed any markings; I can't tell from the photos; it looks like it might be refinished in the first picture, but not in the second.

 

[sigp220.45]

Here it is, in all of its naked glory:

Barrel markings are centered.

The usual BSR hammer.

Plugged lanyard ring hole. The scratches are from me. It is very soft, most probably lead.

No signs of a refinish here. S&W logo is sharp, the screws are unbuggered, and the sideplate seams are appropriately modest.

Nothing to see here:

Or here:

Likewise bare of clues:

Numbers match:

So there you have it. I welcome all opinions.

 

[Absalom]

Hot darn, yes. There is no doubt that is the original finish, and no markings were removed.

It is a standard Carbonia-blue pre-war M&P, due to the lanyard hole most likely made for an "official" contract, and due to the caliber very unlikely for an American recipient.

The gun also still has the B for blued finish on the barrel flat. That ended sometime soon thereafter in the 700-thousands, and never resumed.

I would letter that. Except for the refinish being off the table, my guesses from my previous post #22 still apply.

 

[sigp220.45]

Hot darn, yes. There is no doubt that is the original finish, and no markings were removed.

It is a standard Carbonia-blue pre-war M&P, due to the lanyard hole most likely made for an "official" contract, and due to the caliber very unlikely for an American recipient.

The gun also still has the B for blued finish on the barrel flat. That ended sometime soon thereafter in the 700-thousands, and never resumed.

I would letter that. Except for the refinish being off the table, my guesses from my previous post #22 still apply.

Were all the usual BSR hieroglyphics applied on the way back to the US, not on their arrival in the purchasing country? So this one either stayed here somehow, or came back in a duffle bag?

 

[DWalt]

Those surplussed out by the British in the 1950s-60s got the proof stamps. Yours got here by extra-legal means.

 

[Absalom]

Were all the usual BSR hieroglyphics applied on the way back to the US, not on their arrival in the purchasing country? So this one either stayed here somehow, or came back in a duffle bag?

As DWalt said, no British commercial proofs, no honorable discharge in Britain.

I also do not believe it shipped directly to Britain originally, because the pre-Victory BSR's of the BPC period, until the start of Lend-lease shipments in late 1941, were initially inspected at the RSAF Enfield and so marked on the frame above the grip and with the crossed pennants in front of the cylinder. (See attached photos; this BSR has dull finish due to FTR)

Your gun has none of that either, nor the Canadian arrow-in-a-C, South African or NZ backstrap marks, or anything Australian. So that eliminates probabilities, although nothing is certain, some guns just slipped through.

Frustrating, but unless the letter tells you it shipped directly to the British governor of Bermuda or something, we may never be able to nail it down.

 

[Joe Kent]

Gentlemen, thanks one and all for a very interesting thread. All my very best to you all and I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, Joe.

 

[sigp220.45]

As expected, it shoots well.

I didn't have any .38 S&W reloaded, so I used Fiocchi lead round nose.

It shot low at 50 feet, the max length at the indoor range. I'm sure these were sighted for the slower 200 grain lead or 178 grain jacketed British load.

I've emailed the Sheriff's Office that sold it to the shop to see if they'll tell me how it came into their possession. It is probably from the evidence locker, but there is a very slim chance its been sitting in the armory for a few decades as a spare or a reserve officer gun. No answer yet, and I may never get one. Eventually I will letter it.

 

[sigp220.45]

I know these aren't right, but they look better than the 1975 targets and they were only 50 bucks.

My son is getting me a historical letter for Christmas, so maybe the mystery of the unmarked 4" pre-Victory Cripple Creek British Service Revolver will be solved.

 

[sigp220.45]

As the more learned members suggested, this revolver did indeed go to South Africa:

If only I knew how it came to be in an evidence locker in Cripple Creek, CO.

 

[S&WsRsweet]

You have a cool historic firearm there congratulations . And your son giving you a letter for Christmas wow he's such a nice boy lol I gotta let my sons read this so they can give me better presents ,congratulations on tne gun and the son.Oh yea I almost forgot thanks for letting us know what the letter said.I like these old ex police and military revolvers just wish yours could talk bet ya it would have some interesting stories.

 

[Absalom]

That is pretty cool. I'm not sure how unusual Souh African contract guns without any markings are. I took the liberty of alerting our member Peter in South Africa, our expert on these, to your new post, and hopefully he'll comment.

 

[PJGP]

That is pretty cool. I'm not sure how unusual Souh African contract guns without any markings are. I took the liberty of alerting our member Peter in South Africa, our expert on these, to your new post, and hopefully he'll comment.

This subject has been discussed here before! At the end of May 1940 South Africa agreed to let Britain have the first 4600 4" guns that were ready to be shipped to SA. This was after the guns had left the S&W factory, which is why a factory letter says that they were sent to SA.

Britain agreed to replace these guns in July and August. This must be the reason the BPC order for that Pate mentions was placed on the 17th June. However, they seem to have ordered an extra 279 guns for some reason.

The first S&W M&Ps actually delivered to South Africa were not received until August 1940. All M&Ps received by the Union Defence Force (UDF) were given a rack number and Arrow in U on the back strap. Well actually I have a Lend lease one without the Arrow in U; probably a tea break mistake by the armourer.

Source: South African UDF archives.

Peter

 

[sigp220.45]

This subject has been discussed here before! At the end of May 1940 South Africa agreed to let Britain have the first 4600 4" guns that were ready to be shipped to SA. This was after the guns had left the S&W factory, which is why a factory letter says that they were sent to SA.

Britain agreed to replace these guns in July and August. This must be the reason the BPC order for that Pate mentions was placed on the 17th June. However, they seem to have ordered an extra 279 guns for some reason.

The first S&W M&Ps actually delivered to South Africa were not received until August 1940. All M&Ps received by the Union Defence Force (UDF) were given a rack number and Arrow in U on the back strap. Well actually I have a Lend lease one without the Arrow in U; probably a tea break mistake by the armourer.

Source: South African UDF archives.

Peter

So the mystery continues, despite a letter.

Since my gun has neither British markings nor South African markings, I am at a loss.

Maybe it never left the States, or maybe its another tea-break special.

 

[Absalom]

So the mystery continues, despite a letter.

Since my gun has neither British markings nor South African markings, I am at a loss.

Maybe it never left the States, or maybe its another tea-break special.

That continues to be the oddity. If it entered British service "officially" in that time period, it should have the Enfield acceptance marks. And the fact that it just coincidentally should also have missed the commercial proofing post-war? It might indeed come down to the gun having been "diverted" somewhere along the line, unprovable and unreconstructable, and never entered any official duty.

 

[PJGP]

That continues to be the oddity. If it entered British service "officially" in that time period, it should have the Enfield acceptance marks. And the fact that it just coincidentally should also have missed the commercial proofing post-war? It might indeed come down to the gun having been "diverted" somewhere along the line, unprovable and unreconstructable, and never entered any official duty.

The diversion of the SA revolvers was on account of "the parachute menace" immediately following Dunkirk. Given the urgency (of an expected invasion) I doubt that Enfield inspection was seen as top priority! Other BPC purchases of the same period are found without inspection stamps.

We have discussed diversion before, and it is quite likely that this particular revolver was one such case.

Peter

 

[DWalt]

On my list are three others with very close SNs which shipped that same day, two of which are identified as being South African.

 

[JSR III]

We collectors definitely like to take these guns and tie them up into little bundles wrapped with red ribbons. There are numerous possibilities as to why any single gun does not fit into some specific shipped group. These guns were made by humans, shipped by humans, unloaded by humans, numbered or not by humans etc.

It is possible that this gun was grabbed by any number of folks that had access to it and it never followed its numbered group on the proposed historical journey.

Somebody named Wesson walked on the factory floor and saw this gun and said "wow that's a neat gun, maybe I'll have that one and give it to XXXXXX for his/her birthday." Again, I am not saying that is exactly what happened here but it is possible. We weren't there or anywhere during the life of this gun so there are a hundred possible scenarios as to how this gun came to be where it is today in its current configuration.

As I have said many times, "we just don't know what we don't know". As Roy has said many times, "if only these guns could talk."

 

[Absalom]

The diversion of the SA revolvers was on account of "the parachute menace" immediately following Dunkirk. Given the urgency (of an expected invasion) I doubt that Enfield inspection was seen as top priority! Other BPC purchases of the same period are found without inspection stamps.

We have discussed diversion before, and it is quite likely that this particular revolver was one such case.

Peter

You're absolutely correct. Probability-wise, it's more the combination of neither pre- nor post-service markings that makes a scenario like laid out by James more likely.