.38 Short Colt Loads for USPSA

[Mattoneps]

Hey Everyone,

So I have pretty much settled on buying a 627PC and loading .38 Short Colts for my new USPSA gun. I was curious if anyone could help me start out with my load data? I will be using Titegroup powder and a 158gn Berry RN. I load my 147gn 9mm with 3.2 gn Titegroup and get 130PF, So I was looking at loading my 158 gn to start with 2.5gn and work up from there.


Any input or suggestions?

 

[growr]

Why do you want to use .38 short's in USPSA? I shoot revolver in USPSA a lot and am not seeing what they would do for you.

Randy

 

[S&WIowegan]

Randy,

There is a long answer to your question, but suffice it to say the .38 Short Colt has been predominant in ICORE for years. USPSA only began allowing 8-shot revolvers February, 2014. Take a look at the final standings of the 2014 Revolver Nationals on the USPSA website. All the top finishers were using short, stubby cartridges i.e. 38 Short Colt, 38 Super, 9mm.

I think that pretty much says it.

 

[m657]

Years ago there was a short flurry of a few using 38 Short in SASS matches as an actual historical statement.

Didn't seem to catch on, as the truly fast competitors mostly didn't find enough advantage in their score.

How ironic & charming USPSA is adopting a long-obsolete round. Maybe 32 S&W long will make a comeback as well.

 

[Mattoneps]

I wonder what Miculek thinks about the new 8-shot revolver rule? Honestly IMO, I think they should divide the revolver division into two different divisions now, 6-shot and 8-shot. You cant be competitive anymore shooting the 625 w/ 45ACP because on a 32 round stage you need to reload 2 more times at a minimum over the 8-shot revolver. Also, if you play with the math, being scored minor with a 2 round advantage will always win over the 6-shot major, especially in a high round count stage. For a 6-shooter get near the same power factor on a 100 point stage the 8-shooter would have to get roughly 20-25 less points if the shooter averages a reload of 3.0 seconds. I dont know about you, but I dont see my self scoring 25 less point because im shooting minor, an 8-shot 9mm or short colt out of a 44oz gun is a tac driver.

 

[Ignatz]

If you don't have a 627 right now, then I'd wait for a 929. If your set up for 9mm now, then your ahead of the game.
With Colt Short, you need Starline brass, and the expensive Hearthco moonclips.
You also need to mix and match reloading dies for the Colt Short to make a complete set.
On my Dillon, I size with a 38spl, bell with a 9mm insert, seat the bullet with a 38spl die, and taper crimp with a 38 super profile crimper.
When you start working up a load using the 158 rn Berry's you want to be around 130 pf, and you will find out that, the closer you get to 135 pf, the fired cases might start sticking in the cylinder.
If your not invested in a 627 or Colt Short, wait for a 929. It will be cheaper in the long run.
I use a 130gr Remington .357 MC in Starline brass with 4.2 grs of IMR PB. Around 1,000 fps for my 130 pf.
Have you thought about waiting for a 929?

 

[m657]

In ICORE the "6 vs 8 shot" issue is pretty well negated, as most of the stages are set up "cylinder neutral". While sometimes it works out for one or the other, at least in our local club, nearly all stages have some way of breaking that advantage of 8 shots.

And in the limited exposure I've had, ICORE doesn't make much of the 'major/minor' crisis.

We go out there, we shoot. We're amazed at the fast guys getting faster and befuddled at the slow guys (insert selfie here) seeming to get ever slower.

Despite practice with the 627 and competing for about 4 years with it most months, I can still load a 625 considerably faster.

 

[S&WIowegan]

In ICORE the "6 vs 8 shot" issue is pretty well negated, as most of the stages are set up "cylinder neutral". While sometimes it works out for one or the other, at least in our local club, nearly all stages have some way of breaking that advantage of 8 shots.

And in the limited exposure I've had, ICORE doesn't make much of the 'major/minor' crisis.

We go out there, we shoot. We're amazed at the fast guys getting faster and befuddled at the slow guys (insert selfie here) seeming to get ever slower.

Despite practice with the 627 and competing for about 4 years with it most months, I can still load a 625 considerably faster.

ICORE works hard at making stages 6-round friendly, BUT all you need is one miss on an array and the extra rounds come into play. We shot our second ICORE match recently here in Iowa and I definitely picked up lots of moonclips with 2 rounds remaining.

FYI....there is no major in ICORE and the scoring is all time-based.

 

[growr]

s&WIowegan..OK.so many competitors are using the short....to what advantage is this over .38 specials? ease of extraction is the only thing I can see....less chance of a case hanging up. I cannot see where the short cartridge will any advantage on power factor or am I wrong here as well.

I shoot IDPA/ICORE with 158's and 5 grains of Unique with very good results.....

Would this be correct?

Randy

 

[S&WIowegan]

The .38 Short Colt is an advantage in loading the cylinder as well as emptying. When loaded with a long ogive(nearly pointed bullet) in the 150 to 170gr weight range, the moonclips drop in very quickly since they have a very short travel.....same coming out, especially if some cartridges are still full.

AS far as handloading goes, Short Colt is very efficient using fast powders and heavy bullets. Much less empty space between powder and bullet and no unburned powder to get under the extractor.

At the end of the day, you always get to do your thing the way you prefer. Many decades ago, I shot a 4" Python in USPSA and my loads were Unique and 158gr LRN bullets to make the old 175 PF. The loads were soft shooting. However, I remember shooting prone in a match when it was very humid and getting lost in my own smoke. Of course, this was back when we still thought Pythons were for shooting.

 

[UrsaMajor]

The .38 Short Colt is an advantage in loading the cylinder as well as emptying. When loaded with a long ogive(nearly pointed bullet) in the 150 to 170gr weight range, the moonclips drop in very quickly since they have a very short travel.....same coming out, especially if some cartridges are still full.



AS far as handloading goes, Short Colt is very efficient using fast powders and heavy bullets. Much less empty space between powder and bullet and no unburned powder to get under the extractor.



At the end of the day, you always get to do your thing the way you prefer. Many decades ago, I shot a 4" Python in USPSA and my loads were Unique and 158gr LRN bullets to make the old 175 PF. The loads were soft shooting. However, I remember shooting prone in a match when it was very humid and getting lost in my own smoke. Of course, this was back when we still thought Pythons were for shooting.

I acquired a 627PC at an auction this past February with the intention of shooting it in USPSA under the new rules this year. I had been shooting a 625PC for the past several years and really enjoying it. I have used the 627 in several matches so far this year, shooting .38 Special (4.2 gr of Universal under a 158gr LRN). I ran into a member of the S&W shooting team at the PSA Shootout in PA earlier this season, and noted he was shooting .38 Short Colt in his 627. I just bought 300 pieces of .38 short Colt brass, and am trying to find a load for it using a 158gr LRN and either Clays or 700x powder (choices in powder are slim these days). Does anybody have a load they would share?

Thanks,

Jim


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[alec.mc]

I acquired a 627PC at an auction this past February with the intention of shooting it in USPSA under the new rules this year. I had been shooting a 625PC for the past several years and really enjoying it. I have used the 627 in several matches so far this year, shooting .38 Special (4.2 gr of Universal under a 158gr LRN). I ran into a member of the S&W shooting team at the PSA Shootout in PA earlier this season, and noted he was shooting .38 Short Colt in his 627. I just bought 300 pieces of .38 short Colt brass, and am trying to find a load for it using a 158gr LRN and either Clays or 700x powder (choices in powder are slim these days). Does anybody have a load they would share?

Thanks,

Jim


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Who we talking about here?

The only ( revolver shooter ) on the S&W shooting team that was shooting at the PSA that I know of was Olhasso, and he uses 38 LONG COLT.

 

[wyo-man]

Side question - can one use the .38 Short Colt and still be within the Power Factor for USPSA (which, I believe is higher than in ICOR)?

wyo-man

 

[alec.mc]

Side question - can one use the .38 Short Colt and still be within the Power Factor for USPSA (which, I believe is higher than in ICOR)?

wyo-man

Minor power factor for USPSA is at 125.

Personally, with my experimenting with short colt I couldn't get to a comfortable power factor ( around 135 to be safe traveling for major matches ) without being over pressure.

Solution: 38 Long Colt cases, length is somewhere between a "special" and a "short colt "

 

[S&WIowegan]

Minor power factor for USPSA is at 125.

Personally, with my experimenting with short colt I couldn't get to a comfortable power factor ( around 135 to be safe traveling for major matches ) without being over pressure.

Solution: 38 Long Colt cases, length is somewhere between a "special" and a "short colt "

I don't understand this. The Enos forum has plenty of posts by people successful in making minor with .38 Short Colt???

 

[alec.mc]

I don't understand this. The Enos forum has plenty of posts by people successful in making minor with .38 Short Colt???

Yes, plenty of people do.

Though, I did start my explanation with " Personally, with my experimenting .... "

Just because I couldn't get it to work with my particular powder/bullet arrangements doesn't mean it wont work with other people.

I personally enjoy shooting a 160 grain bullet, stuffing one of those in a tiny little case is easy to see signs of over pressure.

Also, some people will work up a short colt load that *JUST* meets minimum power factor of 125.. maybe 125-128 or so and be completely happy with that.

I do some traveling to larger matches where they will chrono your loads for verification, @ home I might make power factor, but on the other side of the country it may fluctuate due to elevation, etc.

So I wanted to work up a load with a pretty decent " buffer " in mind, with a goal of 135 power factor. Easily doable with long colt, but couldnt get there with short colts.

 

[UrsaMajor]

That's who I was talking to. But apparently trying to hold a conversation with ear pro on during a match leaves something to be desired when it comes to SNR. I apparently misheard him.


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[S&WIowegan]

Heads Up...

the August issue of the Dillon "Blue Press" has an excellent article by Larry Drake on loading the .38 Short Colt. Larry is an experienced USPSA, IDPA, ICORE and steel shooter who likes wheel guns.

 

[11e40]

what about using a .38 s&w ? why not ? just asking.

 

[wyo-man]

Thank you. The Power Factor was my concern.
I see Starline currently have the brass available.

wyo-man

Minor power factor for USPSA is at 125.

Personally, with my experimenting with short colt I couldn't get to a comfortable power factor ( around 135 to be safe traveling for major matches ) without being over pressure.

Solution: 38 Long Colt cases, length is somewhere between a "special" and a "short colt "