.38 Snub load

[Jitterbug]

I'm new here, been shooting for a long time, and have recently gotten back into revolvers currently a Smith and Wesson 442 with CT and I'm shopping for a S&W 4" 629. I've been in the semi world since the early 90's. Still like them, it's just sometimes revolver's can do something's better, especially in the case of the 629.

I'm looking to duplicate some factory carry ammo for practice for the 442.

The factory loads I'm considering for CCW are the

Corbon DPX 110 grain load
Speer Gold Dot 135+ P
Remington 158 LSWCHP+P

The Gold Dot simply may be unavailable, so I may attempt to duplicate it with a 140 gr. XTP handload.

I'm "revisiting" carrying the "Snubbie" and plan to test loads that will be the equivalent or come at least as close as I can get to factory speeds with over the counter components to determine how the gun and I handle the recoil. Since all three of the previously mentioned loads seem to have high approval, once I've decide on the right bullet weight, then I'll focus on the load.

This little gun requires a lot of practice to acquire any reasonable amount of proficiency with it (at least for me) and with the costs of the above factory ammo it's prohibitive to shoot any decent amount of it.

Does anyone have any favorite hand loads that will duplicate the factory loads above?

I've done a ton of researching all over the internet and come back with lot's of conflicting information, especially in regards to the "FBI load' and getting a "book" 850 fps load for it or is this even possible?

I'm not an expert reloader by any means, but have loaded .357, 10mm, .45acp, .44 Magnum, 9mm and some rifle calibers over the years.

I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't a more "general consensus on the 2" .38 and good hand loads for it since it's such a popular CCW. With the 1 7/8" barrel the issue across the board appears to be just barely making the required velocity in any weight to open up.

I'm almost wondering if a hard cast 158 SWC at around an honest 800-850 fps wouldn't be the best of all worlds? Or should I keep trying to find published data to duplicate that velocity from the soft or swaged, Speer, Hornady or Rimrock bullets?

Recently I looked into some VV powder data, N320 and N340 which looks very interesting in all bullet weights for .38, anybody try this with the Snub?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Rule3]

You will probably have better luck finding the XTP bullets than any Gold Dots. The Speer manual has +P loads for them.

Regular LSWC bullets are available anywhere maybe not HP but fine for practice. The best data for those is Lyman manuals.

It all depends on what powder you want to use.

 

[David Sinko]

SR4756 and Power Pistol are my two favorite powders for high performance .38 Special. I have tried N320 and it's too fast. Viht's slower powders would certainly be better but are simply too expensive for me.

You can't go wrong with a hard cast 158 gr. SWC. As for hollow points, the Speer Gold Dot is an excellent bullet but increasingly hard to find. The Hornady XTP is cheaper and extremely accurate. The heavier versions are least likely to expand, and that's just fine with me.

Dave Sinko

 

[Steve in Vermont]

As a suggestion, I have found a very easy reload to be the Remington 125 gr. SJHP or SJSP. I use both Bullseye and Win. 231 Powders. For my (very) old Model 36 I load 4.5 gr of BE or 4.8 of 231. For my Model 28 and 640 I can load to a +P level of 5.3 Gr BE or 5.7 231. One other thing I did when comparing cartridges was to vary the reloads and mix them in the cylinder with factory loads. When I got to the point I couldn't tell the difference between them, in accuracy and recoil, I was close enough for government work.

 

[Dale53]

I have just received a new hollow point (Cramer Style) mould from Mihec. I will be duplicating the 158 gr H.P. FBI load for my 642 with Crimson Trace:

Mp-molds

I applaud your decision to reload. Unless you have VERY deep pockets, indeed, it is almost impossible to afford to shoot enough to become a good pistol shot. Then, you have to continue to shoot to maintain your skill level.

I have been casting my own bullets and reloading for sixty years (it really IS a lifetime sport). My "per shot" cost is so low as to be laughable...

Dale53

 

[nitesite]

This is my favorite J-frame type of self-defense ammo.

Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

Easy to duplicate for anyone who casts (or buys cast bullets) and reloads. Here is a pic of mine.

Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I've never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters'. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!

Bullets for this SD load are easy to produce or purchase, are inexpensive, are effective, and are easy to load to the speeds your are looking for with many, many powders.

They are what I have right now in my 442.

 

[JohnnieB]

While not direct answers to your specific questions, some food for thought.

I carry 158gr LSWCHP +P (Federal 38G) in a Airweight (S&W 637) and practice with 158gr LSWC over modest amounts of Bullseye.
Proficiency with a snubby requires a lot of practice and I tend to practice more with lighter loads, so most of my practice is done with minimal and mid-range loads.
Of course, I shoot some +P also, but the vast majority of my practice is done with lighter loads.

Personally, at 10 yards and less (SD/HD distances), the holes appear pretty close to where I intended them to appear whether I'm shooting mouse-farts, mid-range or +P, but there is a significant difference in the way my 68 year old hands and wrists feel the next day. YMMV

Whatever you decide to carry and/or practice with, be safe and practice, practice, practice.

John

 

[acl864]

FWIW- I think you're on the right track with the 158 gr. SWC (or a 150 gr. DEWC like nitesite mentioned) at a 800 to 850 fps velocity for carry. One of those two bullets with a lighter charge for practice. I like 2.6 gr. of Clays with a 150 gr. DEWC for my practice load.

 

[Jitterbug]

Thanks guy's

Seems to be almost to many choices, with the issue in getting speed up to expand any bullet in the 442 Airweight frame.

I'm considering some of the old standby's and looking into VitaVourhi and Ramshot powders as well and ordering a chrono this week.

N350 is corroborated in the Lyman 49th.

I'm thinking N340, might be better in the 1 7/8" barrel, I wish I could find more published data for it, VV published data seems "hot". Quite a discrepancy between it and the Lyman 49th with N350.

But they look good on paper....

The old standby's seem to be 231, HS6 and Unique.

AA has good looking data and I have some published sources on it.

Anyways should be interesting.

 

[Yurko]

Jitterbug,
While we can all tell you our favorite loads, duplicating factory ammo is almost impossible.
They have access to powder blends that just are for sale to reloaders.

And the factories certainly aren't going to tell us their recipes.

by the way, welcome back from the dark side!

 

[RussellD]

My snubs are fed mild .38 wadcutter reloads. Easy on the gun and the user.

 

[Treeman]

Speer 158 SWCHP. 5 grains Unique.

 

[Steve C]

There's no problem duplicating factory .38 spl loads, you do need to understand what barrel lengths where used in obtaining the factory ballistics and a reasonable variation from those published ballistics when shot in an actual firearm. Best method is to use some actual factory ammo you want to duplicate and run it over a chrono to see what it does in your handgun. Personally I figure if I get +/- under 5% difference from the published ballistics then its pretty much a duplicate load.

4.7 grs of W231 with Speer 158gr LSWCHP's duplicate the +P velocities of Winchester factory SUper X from a 4" barrel when loaded in Winchester cases and lit by a WSP primer. 5.0grs of Unique in Win cases using a WSP primer does the same. Using a CCI primer go to 5.2 grs for the same results.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have successfully duplicated both the Speer 135gr Short Barrel +P load and the FBI Load.

Using a Speer 135gr bullet or the 140gr Hornady XTP bullet I found 6.8gr AA#5 will duplicate the velocity and more importantly the felt recoil of the original Speer load.

As for the FBI Load, I use a Hornady 158gr LSWC/HP bullet and HS-6 powder. The charge is over the current published data so I won't post it here but I'm sure you can figure out how much to use using a Chrono as a guide. Don't forget to use a Magnum primer with HS-6.

 

[Jitterbug]

Thanks Arch

Yes, in perusing the "interweb" in search of results, I saw a lot of your posts and "snipped" some of it along with others, that I put into a Word file for later study...hope you don't mind.

I just realized I have some old 125 gr. Speer H.P.'s "pulls" from back in my 357 days and I have a good supply of 158 gr. semi wadcutters, the 140 XTP's should be available locally, I think I'm going to load a series up of all three from my existing components from start loads to warm and fire them alternately in the cylinder as someone suggested, just to get a feel for the recoil and to see where the gun puts them on paper.

I was going to order the chrono last weekend, but didn't get around to it, I have an extremely busy May scheduled and don't know when I'll get around to clocking the loads. I won't be able to "chrono" at either of the local ranges I shoot at, that will require a special trip up to the hills or out on the plains.

From what I've read you've done a bit of work with the snubbie load so Thanks for the XTP, AA5 and HS-6 info...

All you guys and the info on this forum have been a lot of help...I'll get this little gun figured out...Now if I only could find a good deal on a 4" 629

Thanks!

 

[snubbiefan]

I am easy on the gun too. I like a 110-grain cast SWC over 3.4 grains of Bullseye. It gets downrange PDQ and is a fun plinking around load. I have loaded them down to 3-grains and you can shoot those all day long.

 

[shotslow]

Exactly, that snubby can bite. For practice I use 4.2 grains of Trail Boss with a lead 147 grain TC. That is the max for Trail Boss and a 158 grain lead. I am using a magnum primer by Federal. Still a medium power load at best. I use it mainly for cowboy shooting. After 20 rounds or so you get some soreness to the hand.
Not like the 125 grain half jacketed hollow points loaded with 5 grains of Win231. (5.1 w 125 g hp is 38 spec +p in some books.) Those rounds hurt by the end of 5 rounds.

 

[David LaPell]

One of my favorite carry loads is a 170 grain cast wadcutter Lyman #358429 and around 4.2 grains of Win 231. Since I do alot of walking around in the woods I like something universal. Just remember one thing with those advertised velocities, alot of time those are tested with a 4-inch barrel. But another 25-35 fps won't make a bit of difference in the real world.

 

[ldp4570]

The old faithful from all three major manufacutuer 158GRSWCHP+P. Its been DRTing BG's For years.

 

[BobR1]

I did a little playing with Quick Load.
38 Special +P (18,500 PSI)
All loads were just under 18,500 psi Not Book Loads.
I used numerous powders that should work in a 38 Special:
Unique, Blue Dot, Power Pistol, Silhouette, ZIP, AA#2, AA#5, Clays, and 231.

Barrel Length's Calculated: 2" & 4"
EDIT PLUS 1.5" for Cylinder
VELOCITY RECALCULATED

Lead SWC 158 Grain:
2" Velocity 840 FPS /// 4" Velocity 1120 FPS

Speer 135 Grain HP:
2" Velocity 940 FPS /// 4" 1130 FPS

EDIT: Treeman pointed out a flaw with my numbers. I did not add for the cylinder length while doing the original calculations. This loss of 1.5 Inches of barrel length made the numbers on the 2 inch barrel run a little over 200 fps low.

Bob

 

[Treeman]

Bob, I do not have Quickload and have not attempted a similar theoretical work up.....but I have pushed 158grain bullets out of a 2 inch snub at over 800fps (chronographed) with loads that pressure tested (book) at 16000 CUP. This makes me wonder if your calculations might be based upon a theoretical barrel length that is improperly short...to whit-Did your formula add the 1.5 inches of chamber/cylinder to the nominal lengths?

 

[Jitterbug]

I'm hoping to get out this morning to "test" a couple of 158 SWC start loads with Titegroup and AA#5. And burn up some 125-130 grain FMJ factory loads for practice and brass while I'm at it.

I figure the factory FMJ's might give me some idea of how a "warm" 125-135 gr. load might feel.

I found some "older" Sierra 125 JHP's I had lying around on the shelves and I've decided to warm up the 125's and the 158 SWC and do comparisons as to which suits me and the gun best, this was after I just purchased a box of 125 XTP's.

Got a week off coming up so it will take me a month or so to get a chrono and something worked up, in the meantime I'm carrying with some 125 Nyclads and Federal 129+P Hydroshocks.

I might see if I can pick up a box of the Remington 158 factory load when I place my next order.

 

[BobR1]

Treeman
I had not given that any thought at all. On a revolver the cylinder length and barrel length should add together for a total barrel length. Rim to Muzzle as with a semiautomatic barrel, or a rifle barrel. Adding another 1.5 inches for the cylinder to the calculation would help the velocity a great deal, if adding another 1/2" to a 2" barrel calculation added 100 fps.
Thank you for pointing that out to me.

I just reran the 158 swc loads using 3.5 Inches as the barrel length. This jumped the velocity from just over 600 fps to around 850 fps average. Much better numbers. The calculation has no way to account for the cylinder to barrel jump velocity loss. I would guess this might loose a few additional FPS.
Thank you again.

Bob

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm hoping to get out this morning to "test" a couple of 158 SWC start loads with Titegroup and AA#5.

I think you are going to like the results you achieve using AA#5. It's in the correct burn rate range to produce good velocity without pushing the SAAMI pressure limits too much. I have used AA#5 and HS-6 successfully with lead bullets and Longshot with jacketed bullets. Longshot and lead bullets don't play well together in the .38 Special, .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum for some reason.

 

[Jitterbug]

I ran about 50 rounds of minimum charge weights of AA5 and Titegroup, the TG seemed to recoil less and grouped much better then the AA5 with this particular bullet a Denver Bullet 158 SWC.

Velocity should be about the same with both start loads IIRC???

Also ran 20 rounds of factory Lawman 125 gr. FMJ's. Recoil was about the same as the TG load if not a bit more snappy.

Next project is to warm up the 158's with TG and load up some 125's I have...