.38 Special Heavy Duty/Pre-Model 20

[laney566]

I have a heavy duty .38 N frame and am told it is Pre Model 20.
This thing is one big hunk of Shooting iron. What is the highest velocity, best expanding +p or better ammo out their. I want this thing to be the magnum it was designed to be.
Serial number puts it at around 1938

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm sorry to tell you but there really isn't anything on the market in 38 Special +P factory ammo that will do your .38 HD justice. Most of the +P stuff on the market doesn't even pass 18000 psi. Some of the more expensive ammo from smaller companies like Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap claim higher velocities but even those aren't close to the old .38 HD ammo that was on the market when the revolver was first made.

If you really want good ammo for that revolver you are going to have to use reloads. (sorry)

 

[ddixie884]

Buffalo Bore will do 1150fps from a 4in, I think that is about a 38/44 duplicate load. a 160 gr swc over 12grs of 2400 shoots nicely from my Shooting Master, which is also a large frame .38spl from the good old days. That's approx 1200fps+ from a 4 or 5in barrel. This load only for such large frame revolvers or .357mag.

 

[laney566]

So I am guessing that even with this gun, a .357 wont fit?

 

[ddixie884]

The chambers could have been lengthened to take .357 magnum rounds, but hopefully not. Some consider this unsafe, and most consider it to hurt the value of an old HD.

 

[stiab]

I'm sorry to tell you but there really isn't anything on the market in 38 Special +P factory ammo that will do your .38 HD justice. Most of the +P stuff on the market doesn't even pass 18000 psi. Some of the more expensive ammo from smaller companies like Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap claim higher velocities but even those aren't close to the old .38 HD ammo that was on the market when the revolver was first made.

I don't understand why the effectiveness of particular loads are sometimes evaluated in these forums based soley on pressure? Isn't it more appropriate to evaluate them based on velocity and energy?

Original 38/44 factory loads have been documented on this forum and THR in original guns as running 1125 to 1150 fps through modern chronographs. I think current BB duplicates that. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Gene K]

Buffalo Bore 20A/20 LSWCHP 158 grain Hardcast will go 1175 fps out of a 5". Thats about as stout as you will find in a commercial product. This is as hot as some of the current "Midrange" 357 Magnum products on the market.

Hotter requires handloads.

WARNING: Overpressure Use at Own Risk! The Elmer Keith Load was 13.5 Grains of 2400 behind a 173 Grain Keith Lead SWC. Most recommend restricting that load to the heat treated 357 Magnum today. I have seen numbers as high as 1325 fps for that load and its well past published maximums in manuals.

 

[ddixie884]

I have used some 13gr 2400 under 160swc in new starline +P cases. This seems over pressure to me. Primers were FLATTENED and CRATERED. I don't really think Alliant 2400 is a lot faster than the old Hercules, but I think case capacity is lower, and Primers are hotter. 12 grs is a nice load in my Colt Shooting Master, which is an Equivalent arm to a S&W 34/44.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't understand why the effectiveness of particular loads are sometimes evaluated in these forums based soley on pressure? Isn't it more appropriate to evaluate them based on velocity and energy?

Original 38/44 factory loads have been documented on this forum and THR in original guns as running 1125 to 1150 fps through modern chronographs. I think current BB duplicates that. Correct me if I am wrong.

I reload and most reloaders evaluate the safety of a load by the pressure it develops. I'm more concerned with safety than velocity when reloading and I use pressure as a guide to building my ammo. For the most part (but not always) higher pressures translates into higher velocities. Also, IMO velocity has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a round except when the lack of velocity causes a bullet to remain in it's original state instead of expanding. Also IMO a round is effective if it penetrates well and expands so it can do the job it was intended to do. On the other hand energy is very important when trying to stop a large animal but for the most part not with humans unless we're talking less than 100 ft/lbs like with a light .22LR round. Even that can be argued because shot placement can overcome even the lightest of calibers...

Sorry if my use of pressure isn't clear enough but it's the guidelines I have to work within when reloading...

 

[ImJustTired]

I agree, safety is paramount, pressure is the best indicator.

I evaluate in this order for effectiveness: Pressure - Accuracy - Velocity - Energy.... needs to be safe, accurate, fast *enough and powerful *enough for my needs.

IMHO

 

[BUFF]

"I want this thing to be the magnum it was designed to be."

I am sorry, but your Heavy Duty WASN'T designed to be a Magnum. It was designed to be a higher velocity .38 Special.

If you really want and/or need to obtain .357 Magnum ballistics, you should sell the Heavy Duty and buy a .357 Magnum. The Magnum handguns are far more common and .357 Magnum ammo is far easier to obtain than is .38 Special ammo that develops .38-44 performance.

Enjoy your Heavy Duty for what it is, rather than trying to make it into something it isn't.

 

[laney566]

I'm not unhappy with the gun...I'm unhappy with the lack of ammunition that it can handle.
Until I can get the Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P's, I have settled on the Winchester 130 grain PDX-1 JHP

Thanks for the replies

 

[stiab]

I reload and most reloaders evaluate the safety of a load by the pressure it develops.

For safety yes. Earlier you had stated "Most of the +P stuff on the market doesn't even pass 18000 psi" which alone does not seem (to me) to be an appropriate critera for evaluating a load. Higher pressure does not always equate to higher performance.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

For safety yes. Earlier you had stated "Most of the +P stuff on the market doesn't even pass 18000 psi" which alone does not seem (to me) to be an appropriate critera for evaluating a load. Higher pressure does not always equate to higher performance.

I don't want to hijack this thread but I will answer one more. While you are correct higher pressure doesn't always translate into higher velocity it will if you are using the correct powder with room on the top end. In a .38 Special if I charge 6.6gr HS-6 under a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet AV from a 4" barrel will be ~900 fps with pressures ~17,500 PSI. If I increase the charge to 7.0gr HS-6 under the same bullet the pressure will increase to ~20,000 PSI and the AV from a 4" barrel will be 944 fps.

I really don't want to argue this point especially in someone else's thread. I'm not incorrect using pressure as a guide. In reality when I said most +P ammo doesn't even reach 18,000 psi it was meant to explain there was much more room for increase in pressure and in turn performance of the ammo. I was complaining the factory ammo was well below the SAAMI limits.

 

[stiab]

In reality when I said most +P ammo doesn't even reach 18,000 psi it was meant to explain there was much more room for increase in pressure and in turn performance of the ammo. I was complaining the factory ammo was well below the SAAMI limits.

I don't own a Taurus handgun, but picked up one of their catalogs the other day and found this reference on page 64 very interesting:

"These are the only +P Loads recognized by SAAMI:.38 Special +P Pressure 18,500".

It also gave the info for 9mm, .38 Super, and .45 Auto.

 

[ddixie884]

+P used to be 22,000psi, it was dropped to 18,500, but was raised back to 20,000 a few years ago. I don't remember where I got this info, but have been studying up on +P lately on the net. The author had discovered the discrepency, and called Speer. They said current +P is 20,000psi.

 

[old bear]

Your best options would be the B/B or Double Tap +P loads, or the Federal 147 Gr. +P+ ammo.