.38 Special LSWC keyholing

[colt_saa]

I've shot a lot of Hornady 148 hbwc bullets over the years.. Never had one keyhole.

I too have shot thousands of the Hornady HBWCs with no problems

However the projectile in question is the Hornady SWCHP

Daimler1989,
You mentioned that the recovered projectile you have photographed is an old one. Is it from the same batch of projectiles that is giving you trouble? Did that load also keyhole?

If not, looking at one of the current, keyholeing projectiles would be a good idea.

And you need to measure the diameter of those projectiles.

 

[pistolpete10]

I guess I missed that they were SWCHP. I recently bought some to load for my 642 revolver. So far I've gotten bullet jump on the 5th bullet almost 100% of the time. The bullets measure .357, just not tight enough in the cases. Last I fired were loaded in GI cases, they are a little tighter, still got a little jump on some of them. This being said, the bullets were accurate and hit the target perfectly straight, no tilt or keyhole what so ever. Out of the 2" bbl they prolly weren't doing 700 fps. I didn't shoot any over the Chrony. They do have healthy recoil in the 642.

 

[colt_saa]

I guess I missed that they were SWCHP. I recently bought some to load for my 642 revolver. So far I've gotten bullet jump on the 5th bullet almost 100% of the time. The bullets measure .357, just not tight enough in the cases. Last I fired were loaded in GI cases, they are a little tighter, still got a little jump on some of them. This being said, the bullets were accurate and hit the target perfectly straight, no tilt or keyhole what so ever. Out of the 2" bbl they prolly weren't doing 700 fps. I didn't shoot any over the Chrony. They do have healthy recoil in the 642.

Pete,
If you have a set of 9MM dies on hand, try putting that expander plug into your 38 special die. This may be too small but does not alter parts

My preferred solution would be to reduce the diameter of your 38 special expander by about .001.

This should greatly improve your case tension on the bullet

 

[Daimler1989]

Hi,
thanks everyone again for new input. I slugged the barrels and chamber throads of all my .357 Magnum revolvers, but the batteries of my caliper are empty and need to be replaced. So no exact data at the moment.

BUT: I went the easy way an tried to pass several bullets through the chambers. Interesting. Speer LSWCHP and a hardcast SWC I regularly use don't pass through. Both advertised as.358 diameter. The Hornady LSWC HP FALLS through. Altough it should have .358 diameter as well...

I have no possibility to use a new Hornady as they are all loaded. I used a bullet I pulled off by inertia bullet puller. So far, I suspect the Lee Factory Crimp Die I used to use to be the scapegoat - recalibrating the bullet to less than .357 diameter. I will go and try the other bullets with a dummy cartridge and the factory crimp die, then pass through the chambers again. See what will happen.

regards
Ulrich

 

[Nevada Ed]

Your final crimp die will only reduce the bullet at the end of the brass.............
and not the whole cylinder of the bullets shaft.

The crimp ring inside your die is not the problem.

If that bullet falls through the cylinder........
that is where the problem lies.

Maybe they will work in a 9mm load as a large 147gr bullet ? !

Good luck.

 

[stansdds]

The Lee FCD can swage the bullet to an undersized diameter and that might be the problem. I have yet to have a need for such a die, I use a roll crimp die for revolver ammo, a taper crimp die for semi-auto pistol ammo.

 

[oddshooter]

And if manufacturers delivering bullets with different, inconsistent diameters isn't bad enough, our handloading can mash them as well.

If you want that seater die not to swage down a bullet, you might try a Lyman "M" die that makes a little nest of the correct diameter for the bullet to seat in.

I am continually seeing my seating swage down my bullets that I had so carefully chosen for correct diameter. My normal expander die wasn't leaving a large enough diameter case. The M die concept can help with that.

The small bell/flare at the top of the case, is completely different. That is made to be able to sit a bullet on the case top and stop scrapping when seating.

I believe the keyholing is because the bullet starts wobbling through the cylinder exits. The diameter of the cylinder exits and the bullet must match. If exits are too small, it must swage down the bullet to enable it to pass through. If exits are too large, wobbling is continuous.

If using soft cast bullets, that diameter after leaving the exits should be .002 over the groove diameter. .001 over for jacketed and plated.

Another issue is using a strong profile crimp die that swages down the brass and bullet too much.

All of these require you to build a round and then use a puller to get the bullet out and measure it with some good digital calipers. You have to do this after each step in handloading to determine where the issue is.


Prescut

 

[Nevada Ed]

"Another issue is using a strong profile crimp die that swages down the brass and bullet too much.

All of these require you to build a round and then use a puller to get the bullet out and measure it with some good digital calipers. You have to do this after each step in handloading to determine where the issue is."............ quote

or you can just push the bullet down into the case....
open up the belling enough for the bullet to fall out, but ....
this will kill the case and it will need to be tossed out.

 

[boatbum101]

Any bullet that will fall through cylinder is undersized for that gun . If it takes more than finger pressure or a pencil to push a bullet through a cylinder it's oversized . Under will lead , over will raise pressure somewhat but better than undersized . Will the slug you pushed through the bore pass through cylinder throats ? If so that's good , if not cylinder throats are undersized & need to be opened up . Also too small a throats will lead every time as bullet has been sized down before it hits the bore . Gas bypass flamecuts bullet base & you got big time leading . The Hornady bullets fall through they're undersize for that gun . If throats are larger than bore a bullet sized to throats with a good lube won't lead . We've all bought bullets that weren't sized as advertized . I'm hoping throats are good & all you need is correctly sized bullets .

 

[pistolpete10]

Pete,
If you have a set of 9MM dies on hand, try putting that expander plug into your 38 special die. This may be too small but does not alter parts

My preferred solution would be to reduce the diameter of your 38 special expander by about .001.

This should greatly improve your case tension on the bullet

I'll give that a try. I'll note that there isn't much resistance when seating the bullets.... It won't take much if I use the GI brass. They are accurate and no leading, soft lead, .357 instead of .358, may have to shoot them in the heavier guns.

 

[rwsmith]

This is a wild shot.....

Make sure it's not the target paper that you are using. I've had some tear in little rectangles instead of holes and I thought it was keyholing.

 

[Rule3]

Make sure it's not the target paper that you are using. I've had some tear in little rectangles instead of holes and I thought it was keyholing.

Yep, or


For the OP how is your target paper hanging? Is you target paper just hanging by a clip attached to the top (like an indoor range) or is it firmly stapled or taped to a backer board of cardboard.
Target paper just swinging in the breeze will give distorted holes.

 

[Daimler1989]

Hi,

first of all let me say how thrilled I am with all those thoughts and answers where the problem might lie and how it could be solved. Just as a side note: I'm living in Germany and German internet forums are a often melting pot of narcisstic morons who not only try to insult you, but turn every thread into a short fused bursting charge for everyone who has another opinion. Here in Germany I probalby would have got the answer that I should not shoot a handgun if my hands were so shaky that the barrel would wobble when I pull the trigger. Thumbs up for you all, Gentlemen, for your advice and ideas, for your time and effort put into your answers to my posting. Thank you.

I try to explain what I found out so far, in addition to what I described earlier. I put another lead bullet with a dummy round through the Lee FC die, and as presumed earlier, it didn't fall through after having been pulled out of the case. So, the FC does not seem to swage the bullet down so far that diameter might be severely concerned. I loaded the Hornady bullets some time ago, after that (for completely different reasons) I switched to a tight roll crimp. I never had keyholing issues with any other handload, no matter which bullet I use. It's only the Hornadies.

Target paper is not the scapegoat as I use many different types and targets. And this keyholing effect is so severe, that there are bullets going completely sideways into the target at 10 meters. No matter which paper...

I have to admit that the effect is more often noticable with my 13-2 than with my 27-2 and 27-3. This might be the case because of some timing issues the gun has. BUT: Even at 25 meters accuracy of the 13-2 is such that I can hit a 12x8 " target with each of 30 rounds - as long as I do not use Hornadies.

I will try to contact the dealer where I bought the bullets and ask if he had any complaints comparable to mine. Interestingly I bought some 230 flat nose lead bullets for my .45 ACP 625-4 to load some auto rims - those bullets advertised as .451 diameter are indeed to small to sit tight in the Starline .45 AR brass even with a strong taper crimp. You can press them down by thumb. How common is shrinkage with lead bullets? Or how common might too small sizing occur by the manufacturer?

regards
Ulrich

 

[rwsmith]

Thanks for the detail....

Hi,

first of all let me say how thrilled I am with all those thoughts and answers where the problem might lie and how it could be solved. Just as a side note: I'm living in Germany and German internet forums are a often melting pot of narcisstic morons who not only try to insult you, but turn every thread into a short fused bursting charge for everyone who has another opinion. Here in Germany I probalby would have got the answer that I should not shoot a handgun if my hands were so shaky that the barrel would wobble when I pull the trigger. Thumbs up for you all, Gentlemen, for your advice and ideas, for your time and effort put into your answers to my posting. Thank you.

I try to explain what I found out so far, in addition to what I described earlier. I put another lead bullet with a dummy round through the Lee FC die, and as presumed earlier, it didn't fall through after having been pulled out of the case. So, the FC does not seem to swage the bullet down so far that diameter might be severely concerned. I loaded the Hornady bullets some time ago, after that (for completely different reasons) I switched to a tight roll crimp. I never had keyholing issues with any other handload, no matter which bullet I use. It's only the Hornadies.

Target paper is not the scapegoat as I use many different types and targets. And this keyholing effect is so severe, that there are bullets going completely sideways into the target at 10 meters. No matter which paper...

I have to admit that the effect is more often noticable with my 13-2 than with my 27-2 and 27-3. This might be the case because of some timing issues the gun has. BUT: Even at 25 meters accuracy of the 13-2 is such that I can hit a 12x8 " target with each of 30 rounds - as long as I do not use Hornadies.

I will try to contact the dealer where I bought the bullets and ask if he had any complaints comparable to mine. Interestingly I bought some 230 flat nose lead bullets for my .45 ACP 625-4 to load some auto rims - those bullets advertised as .451 diameter are indeed to small to sit tight in the Starline .45 AR brass even with a strong taper crimp. You can press them down by thumb. How common is shrinkage with lead bullets? Or how common might too small sizing occur by the manufacturer?

regards
Ulrich

...obviously you are conscientious about what you are doing and serious forum member appreciate that. And you are right, this is one of the best forums on the web thanks in part to really knowledgeable members and the moderator and staff which keep a very tight lid on content.

One thing that clued me into the 'fake' keyholing with the targets was that each hole tore vertically rather than random directions like actual keyholing would do.

 

[stansdds]

Daimler1989, I strongly suggest that you put a fresh battery in your caliper and measure the diameter of the Hornady bullets.

 

[pistolpete10]

Daimler1989, I strongly suggest that you put a fresh battery in your caliper and measure the diameter of the Hornady bullets.

A micrometer is better than calipers for measuring bullets, I wouldn't trust the electronic ones anyway.

 

[stansdds]

A micrometer is better than calipers for measuring bullets, I wouldn't trust the electronic ones anyway.

I'm not a fan of battery powered calipers or scales. Just like the issue the OP is currently experiencing, the batteries eventually fail and the instrument becomes an expensive paperweight. I'm older, I like the reliability of mechanical instruments.

 

[boatbum101]

Just looked thru Horn 6th edition . With that bullet they are showing a max load of 4.5grs VVN-340 . 800fps , Hornady brass , Winchester Small Pistol Primer , oal 1.455" , shot from a S&W 15 4". You already know your bullets are undersized , plus you're pushing a soft swaged bullet too fast . Classic recipe for leading / inaccuracy . Whats happening is pressure of your load is exceeding the yield strength of the bullets alloy . Even if bullets were sized correctly this is still not the way to good results . Two choices assuming you have correctly sized bullets : Reduce powder charge or go with a harder alloy . 38 special you don't need harder than BHN 8 to 10 . Two rules of thumb if you shoot cast bullets : must be of correct size for the gun & alloy must match load pressure . You'll have much better luck if you follow these .

 

[Nevada Ed]

It might just be the powder that you are using?

You stated 833fos with the 158g bullet with a 4"...................

Unique powder in my J frame snub nose will get 861fps with a Speer bullet.

Better luck with the next box of bullets.

 

[boatbum101]

Recent post on Bullseye-L forum , guy had some Hornady 158 RN swaged & was having problems . Turns out they are also undersized . I've only bought their HBWC . They shot OK but were pricey . Remeber being able to buy a case ( 2,000 ) of the excellent Remington or Winchester 148 HBWC for what I'd pay for 900 Hornady . When the Winchesters became unavailable I got the Rem as they both shot well . 3rd place went to the old Star's that came in plastic tubes .