380 EZ stovepipe resolution

[gc70]

Continuing posts in this thread prompted me to make one more attempt to get resolution from S&W on my wife's 380 EZ.

A substantial number of S&W M&P 380 Shield EZ pistols have feeding problems related to their magazines. The problems are widely recognized and discussed on the internet (Google "380 EZ feeding" or "380 EZ stovepipe") but Customer Service continues to deny the problems or uselessly send new magazine springs to complaining owners.

Unfortunately, it looks like S&W both knows about the problem and how to fix it, but refuses to take action. The 9mm Shield EZ is highly similar to the 380 version, but has a couple of changes in the magazine design that interestingly prevent the type of problems encountered with the 380 magazines. Even S&W's own Pro Shooter, Jerry Miculek, mentions the magazine design changes in a video about the 9mm Shield EZ.

I love my 9mm Shield EZ, but my wife's 380 Shield EZ frightens me. I do not want her self-defense pistol to rely on do-it-yourself attempts to fix a magazine problem that S&W is aware of, could fix, and should fix.

Please advice if S&W can -or will- do anything to correct the problem with my wife's 380 Shield EZ magazines (and no more "updated" yellow-painted magazine springs are needed to replace the yellow-painted springs already in her magazines).

S&W responded with a polite request for more information about the problem.

The problem is that the last round from the magazines (4 magazines) randomly have failures to feed in the form of stovepipes. The incidence of the problem is not consistent from magazine to magazine or each time a specific magazine is used. I have previously changed the magazine springs to yellow-painted ones, even for the magazines that already had yellow-painted springs. Changing springs did not help at all. I have also scuffed the tops of the magazine followers to increase adhesion/friction with the last round's casing. Scuffing the followers reduced the incidence of the problem by half or more, but the problem remains at the reduced rate.

S&W responded with an offer to send a prepaid FedEx label for me to send the pistol and magazines in for evaluation.

I sent the pistol and 4 magazines back to the factory and they were received by S&W on 10/29/2021. Evaluation and repair was finished on 11/23/2021 (the Tuesday before Thanksgiving) and the gun was shipped back to me the first thing on the morning on 11/29/2021 (the Monday after Thanksgiving).

While S&W repair orders are not verbose, mine shows that the barrel was replaced.

I have not had time to check whether the barrel replacement has fixed the stovepipe issue, but I give S&W credit for being responsive to my complaint and for doing something specific to address the issue.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Hopefully, the barrel change will resolve the problem, although due to experience with my wife’s .380 EZ through which she’s fired 3225 rounds, I strongly believe the problem resides with a magazine design shortcoming which S&W may have rectified with their totally new magazine design for the 9mm EZ model.

Please let us know if replacing the barrel has resolved your issue.

Thanks and good luck.

 

[LVSteve]

One can only speculate on how changing the barrel affects stovepipes...so I will.

1) I wonder if the new barrel has a different feed ramp to the original.

2) I wonder if there has been a subtle engineering change to the shape of the camming area of the barrel to change the timing of the cycling. Maybe that area was out of spec on the original barrel.

3) The old barrel did not retain snake oil like it should.

What does the hive think?

 

[CB3]

I appreciate the effort to get S&W on record about resolving the problem. I’d like to see a side-by-side comparison of old/new barrels.

My guess? No difference. This was a non-answer fix to get rid of this client.

The cartridge has to stand up BEFORE it gets to the feed ramp or barrel in order to stove pipe a live round. I think the diagnosis reached long ago by board members that the cartridge must be leaving the feed lips and pointing up before it can get to the barrel is accurate. This “stand up” propensity must be slowed for the cartridge to point lower and go into the barrel. That it only happens on the last round in a magazine is indicative of a follower problem.

This is a magazine design issue, IMO. I significantly scuffed six new mag followers, polished the inside of the mags, springs and feed lips, and smoothed the sides of the followers. I’ve not had the problem on my or my daughter’s .380 EZ. Both are completely reliable with all six magazines and many different kinds of ammo, including Barnes TAC-XP hollow points.

 

[kbm6893]

The obvious design change between the .380 magazine and the 9MM magazine, And Jerry Miculek specifically pointing it out and specifically stating that the purpose of the new design is to aid in feeding the rounds properly, is 100% proof positive that the issue is a magazine design issue, S&W knows about it, and for whatever reason, probably financial, they don’t want to fix it. I was one of the first on this forum to post the Miculek video when the 9MM version first came out, because I had just bought the 9MM version and was hesitant due to the .370 issues. My 9MM has been flawless. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if that YouTube video will soon be taken down, if it hasn’t already.

 

[gc70]

One can only speculate on how changing the barrel affects stovepipes...so I will.

2) I wonder if there has been a subtle engineering change to the shape of the camming area of the barrel to change the timing of the cycling. Maybe that area was out of spec on the original barrel.

LVSteve might be correct in guessing that some slight change in the timing of the slide's operating cycle might be the solution to the problem with my wife's EZ.

S&W did an incredible job of designing the EZ for ease of use. However, I wonder whether the various design objectives (such as easy to rack and easy to load) may combine in a way that produces a set of operating tolerances that is narrower than average. It is my suspicion that tolerance stacking may be the culprit.

I appreciate the effort to get S&W on record about resolving the problem. I’d like to see a side-by-side comparison of old/new barrels.

My guess? No difference. This was a non-answer fix to get rid of this client.

Unfortunately, this answer may be close to the truth. The stovepipe issue apparently only involves a small percentage of EZs. Even then, most EZs with the issue seem to encounter it sporadically.

Whatever the answer may be, I give S&W credit for making a solid effort to address the issue with my wife's EZ.

 

[oldiegoldie]

anyone measured distance between feed lips on magazines? i have a similar stove pipe problem with a Bersa .380 CC. the Bersa magazines have been trouble free with > 700 rounds. i bought some Mec Gar magazines [well deserved reputation for highest quality] and have had stovepipes with them. i measured distance between feed lips and Mec Gar's are 20/1000" wider than Bersa mags. this may be comparing apples and oranges but thought it worthwhile mentioning.

i had a .380 EZ and never had problems with it but decided to trade when the stove pipe issue began getting traction.

 

[m&p2.0fdethumbsafety]

the fix would require an update to the follower of which there are already currently 4 generations

 

[Oldsalt66]

the fix would require an update to the follower of which there are already currently 4 generations

I believe the feed lips also need to be redesigned to resemble those of the 9mm EZ pistol magazines.

 

[HEADKNOCKER]

I thought about ordering several of the followers & trying different ideas on each then marking the magazines & test driving them to see which one if any made an improvement
MGW has the followers for $5.25ea
Smith & Wesson M&P380 Shield EZ Magazine Follower: MGW

Being the magazine hoarding thing seems to be over they are available more easily but still overpriced IMO $25-$40+

My Son's 380EZ only came with one magazine & I didn't want to start any changes on the magazine without having backups

So far his hasn't had the issue but expect it too

His the magazine spring was installed backwards but I caught that on initial inspection & cleaning

With what .380 ammo costs it makes it a cost thing to shoot 300 rounds of .380 = $300
The guy at the local pistol range has told me he replaced the recoil spring + magazine springs & followers on both their 380 EZ range guns more than once, He say He Rents it the most of any He has including the SIG P365, Glocks etc.
Everybody wants a 380EZ because of it's easy load & rack feature

I recommended one to an old friend = 75+ year old lady whose husband passed away & hers has been 100% too
I've known Her for 45+ years & after reading all the problems with them really felt hesitant about recommending it to Her.

LGS has a stack of the 380 & 9mm EZs & sells one every day

When we bought my Son's the missing magazine got us the pistol for $329 IIRC, LGS kept it for the one their Mother Bought, We also didn't get the box or cable lock + Blue bag, Just the gun & one mag = Boo Hoo!!

Just a question, Who has the best price currently on the 380EZ magazines & has them in stock, If you guys know me usually I am on top of this kinda stuff but have been sick & my main PC is having issues

I'm on a little lap top in the man cave now

Guys I have a Glock 19X coming for Christmas & after getting an Hk last year feel kinda let down already

I also feel like letting my son or wife shoot the EZ without having ME around is trouble waiting to happen

I want to get him an few extra magazines for Christmas

LMK Here on the prices if you could

Darn tiny itty bitty little lap top

I go to the Heart Doctor Next Week & will know my outcome
My Twin Brother Passed away 8 months ago & that has lit a fire under me to get things in order as far as my health

RIP Jerry my Brother

Here's a photo of the three S&Ws in my kitchen drawer
The two H&Ks are in the safe in the basement & Glock is at my Honey Hole waiting last payments = No Hurry

Gary/Hk

 

[Paul in Nevada]

One problem the 380 EZ has over the 9mm is the semi-rimmed case on the 380. I have seen a slow motion video where you can plainly see the second to last round being flicked upwards in the magazine as the slide travels backwards. If you played Tiddly-Winks as a kid you know how this works. I don't know if a spring/follower redesign would be enough to fix this 100% of the time. I think the feed lips need to be addressed as well. There have been successful 380 pistols for over 100 years so this isn't rocket science.
The only way I can see S&W solving this problem would be to redesign the magazine and do a one for one swap with existing customers. I realize this would be expensive and I realize the bean counters have done an analysis and determined that the cheapest solution is to pretend the problem does not exist. I don't know if they considered the damage to S&W's reputation.

 

[LVSteve]

I realize this would be expensive and I realize the bean counters have done an analysis and determined that the cheapest solution is to pretend the problem does not exist. I don't know if they considered the damage to S&W's reputation.

Modern business. If it cannot be recorded in a ledger or plotted in Excel, it didn't happen.

 

[Mike J]

LVSteve might be correct in guessing that some slight change in the timing of the slide's operating cycle might be the solution to the problem with my wife's EZ.

S&W did an incredible job of designing the EZ for ease of use. However, I wonder whether the various design objectives (such as easy to rack and easy to load) may combine in a way that produces a set of operating tolerances that is narrower than average. It is my suspicion that tolerance stacking may be the culprit.



Unfortunately, this answer may be close to the truth. The stovepipe issue apparently only involves a small percentage of EZs. Even then, most EZs with the issue seem to encounter it sporadically.

Whatever the answer may be, I give S&W credit for making a solid effort to address the issue with my wife's EZ.

Did you test the pistol after getting it back from S&W? Did what they did resolve the last round feed issue?

 

[tjkoko]

My S&W 380 EZ is regularly stovepiping now after some 250 rounds - always the last round from the magazine. It looks as if I'm gonna' sell and replace it with some other 380.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

My S&W 380 EZ is regularly stovepiping now after some 250 rounds - always the last round from the magazine. It looks as if I'm gonna' sell and replace it with some other 380.

Me too. I might get the wife a G42. I saw a Rock Island "Baby Rock" 1911 that was pretty cool as well.

 

[tjkoko]

Me too. I might get the wife a G42. I saw a Rock Island "Baby Rock" 1911 that was pretty cool as well.

The Sig P238 is looking awfully good.

 

[gc70]

Did you test the pistol after getting it back from S&W? Did what they did resolve the last round feed issue?

I have only had it back to the range once. I do not consider 50 rounds enough to conclusively prove the problem has been solved.

Stay tuned.

 

[Mike J]

I have only had it back to the range once. I do not consider 50 rounds enough to conclusively prove the problem has been solved.

Stay tuned.

I understand. When I was testing I was loading 2 rounds in the magazine, chambering one & letting the other feed from the magazine just to see what it would do. I have a hard time once I get frustrated with something though.

 

[gc70]

I understand. When I was testing I was loading 2 rounds in the magazine, chambering one & letting the other feed from the magazine just to see what it would do. I have a hard time once I get frustrated with something though.

Here is my testing routine using 4 mags:

• load 2 rounds each in 2 mags and 3 rounds each in 2 mags
• chamber and fire 1 round from each magazine loaded with 2 rounds (2 tests)
• chamber and fire 2 rounds from each magazine loaded with 3 rounds (2 tests)
• repeat until a 50-round box of ammo is fired (32 tests)
• this results in each magazine being tested 8 times (4 times with 2 rounds and 4 times with 3 rounds)

I want to do 25 successful tests per magazine (a total of 3 boxes of ammo for the 4 mags) before I will feel reasonably certain the gun is really fixed.

 

[Oldsalt66]

My wife was getting stoppages with her .380 EZ at the range last week and a change of magazines resolved the problem for the rest of the day.

.380 EZ magazines are garbage IMO, and unworthy of a pistol that’s designed for self defense.

Since the 9mm EZ magazines are of a totally different design than the .380s, I wonder what the new .30 super carry magazines look like?