.380 load (Calling Erich)

I just found some useful .380/P3AT test results at www.goldenloki.com . Too bad they didn't include heavy cloth in their testing.

I think the Fiocchi Extrema is worthy of note. My hunch is that the bullet expanded, but the petals were folded back to the front when it tumbled backwards. I've seen that happen before. Had it not expanded, my hunch is that it would have penetrated deeper.
 
Very interesting, thanks for the link. I was interested to see the Gold Dot and Critical Defense rounds' performance. The performance from their GD differs from what I have previously seen, having decent penetration and deformation. Maybe it's due to their test protocol. IMO bare gelatin tests are not worth the time it takes to conduct them. The link states their test protocol includes 2 layers of denim, if they would have used 4 layers I believe the results would have been much different, and more comparable to others I've seen. With time and money limited, the last few times we tested duty ammo we cut to the chase and only used the auto glass (windshield) and the 4 layer denim protocols.

Ball is about the only .380 I have seen have acceptable penetration in the denim testing. No hollowpoint, one that actually expands anyway, makes 12 inches in my experience. Like Erich and others have said the .380, while very popular, has poor terminal performance; it either expands and has insufficent penetration , or has sufficient penetration (unless it strikes significant structures in the body) and pokes a very small hole. It's best to carry a larger caliber if at all possible.
 
Lt., I agree about the larger caliber, and thank you for pointing out what I'd missed regarding the test protocol being two layer denim. I hadn't scrolled down far enough and assumed that they shot bare gel.

Myself, I'm generally more interested in four layer test results since I really like to try to make the bullet fail. Bare gel is cool because it exposes the bullet to the other end of the spectrum where expansion should be the most violent and shows how consistent it's behavior is. Two layer is fish nor fowl IMO, but it was interesting to see that their results were consistent with mine when I used four layers of denim. I'm not a cop so I don't test with auto glass. I do, however, take comfort in the fact that Gold Dots are bonded.

In my tests, Golden Loki's and, IIRC, www.stoppingpower.net 's, Speer Gold Dot was good for 12"+ every time, four layer, or bare.
 
380 Penetration Testing

Well I got out to the farm and here are the results of the testing I did. I had a couple other things in 38 Special and 44 Special that I wanted to test but ran out of water jugs.

Attached is a picture of the box I built to hold the water jugs, it holds a total of 16 jugs. I shot from 10 feet away, the same distance that I chronograph from. Temperature was 70 degrees.

.380 handload of 4.6 grains Alliant Power Pistol with a Lee 120 grain Truncated Cone at 951 fps. Penetrated 10 jugs and stuck into #11. The bullet was holding #10 & #11 together.

.380 factory load, PMC 90 grain FMJ at 855 fps. The bullet passed through 4 jugs and penetrated the 5th, was lying inside the 5th jug.

9mm factory load, Winchester 115 FMJ at 1149 fps. I didn’t have any factory FMJ 9mm on hand and found this load at Bass Pro Shops. I selected it as the bullet was almost identical to my cast Lee 120 grain TC. Bullet penetrated 9 jugs and exited the bottom rear corner of the 9th jug and was found laying in the box next to the rear corner of the 10th jug.

The pictures left to right show the cast Lee 120 grain TC, PMC 90 grain FMJ, and the Winchester 115 grain TC.

My conclusion is that the handload has too much penetration. What do you all think?
 

Attachments

  • 380 Project Pen 003.jpg
    380 Project Pen 003.jpg
    113.9 KB · Views: 150
  • 380 Project Pen 006.jpg
    380 Project Pen 006.jpg
    109 KB · Views: 146
  • 380 Project Pen 009.jpg
    380 Project Pen 009.jpg
    93.3 KB · Views: 164
  • 380 Project Pen 010.jpg
    380 Project Pen 010.jpg
    79.5 KB · Views: 196
  • 380 Project Pen 014.jpg
    380 Project Pen 014.jpg
    52.6 KB · Views: 171
Ho-ly smokes! :eek: I'd say that .380 handload is a bit more penetrative than I'd like to use for defensive use. As you certainly know, the 9x19 FMJ loading is essentially certain to overpenetrate a human aggressor. And your .380 handload equalled (or bettered!) its penetration. Wow.

Man, that really is a hell-on-wheels load! Great googly moogly! :) Tell you what, I know what I'm going to answer the next time someone asks me "What .380 load should I use for defense against black bear in the wilderness?" Holy smokes!

Thanks so much for following-up with your results - absolutely fascinating.
 
Maybe this will become my wild pig load! No, just kidding.

I have another load that I'm going to try next. It is the same 4.6 grains of Power Pistol behind a 124 grain Rainier Plated HP. It chronographs at 870 fps.

I'm going to try it on bare jugs like I did here and then with a layer of T-shirt and Denim.

I better get to drinking water this week if I want to test it out next weekend!
 
I haven't had an OAL issue with the Raniers.

I don't have any 124 gr Gold Dots. I have some 115 grain Gold Dots and some 115 grain Silvertips.

What do you think about those? The reason I loaded the Raniers originally was that I thought they would be softer and might expand at 380 velocity as opposed to the Gold Dots and Silvertips. Also that the pressure would be lower with the Raniers as they are plated lead bullets rather than jacketed. Although I wonder if Gold Dots are sort of the same as the Raniers.

I guess only testing will tell.
 
Last edited:
Your logic makes perfect sense to me. You just stated everything that occurred to me after I thought about your 124-gr HP proposition. As you state, the proof will be in the pudding . . . I'm really interested in hearing the results of this next experiment.

Keep drinking that water! :D
 
KSCowboy, I agree with Erich, I think your thinking is on the right track using plated lead Rainiers.

Where did you get your load data? My Modern Reloading manual lists 4.8 gr. as a max load for a 90 gr. XTP. Even though you're running a plated lead bullet, not jacketed, 4.6 gr. seems like a lot for a bullet that heavy. I could just as easily be wrong (and hope I am, this is cool). Are you getting signs of high pressure?

Also, what kind of gun did you use?
 
Wow. I would have never though a .380 could out-penetrate 9mm ball. And, yes, it's a bit too much for SD. Thanks, very interesting!
 
I know I'm
beat-dead-horse.gif
but I just received some Double Tap .380 and am enthused by Flop-Shank's results with XTP bullets along with the advertised velocity of these rounds (I though I saw previously that they chrono slightly slower). I plan to test them and about 8 different .40 rounds tomorrow for function and accuracy.
 
Last edited:
Hi Rich (Newport, eh - I remember seeing Black Flag there in '84!),

I think that the DT would be very interesting with the hollowpoints - I'd be curious to see your results. I might even be tempted to buy some more (for my new LCP) if they looked good. Their .40, BTW, was really wonderful.
 
Rich, my Kel-tec hates cone shaped bullets such as the XTP, but loves the rounded ogive of Gold Dots. I'm looking forward to seeing what you post after you've tested.
 
You know, I think I've managed to forget to post this here - I chrono'd some .380 from a Ruger LCP this weekend at the Albuquerque City Range, 5950 feet above sea level, 78° F:

Winchester white box 95-gr flat-point ball
Mean 900.2 fps/extreme spread 31.47 fps/standard deviation 11.87 feet per second

Federal 95-gr ball
M 851.0/ES 28.05/SD 9.94

Remington 95-gr ball
M 890.6/ES 39.06/SD 15.19

Fiocchi 95-gr ball
M 808.7/ES 63.96/SD 26.15
 
Double Tap range results

I just got back from the range and am VERY happy with the Double Tap .380. It shot consistent 3" groups out of my Kel-Tec without a hiccup (impressive given the almost lack of sights). I'll try to get a pic as soon as I can.

With the penetration and expansion of the XTP bullet (IIRC DT uses Hornady's XTP, but it doesn't state it on their site. I could be wrong here), higher velocity than Hornady, and the accuracy it has just shown I feel pretty confident with my mouse gun.:D

I would still like to see a penetration test of the DT though, to see the effects of that extra speed..

(I have a test thread on .40 that I started some time ago, I should finally have results there soon as well)
 
Last edited:
I do not want to question anyone's authority, believe me, you all seem to know more about this than I do. But, after reading this, I was questioning my choice of carrying Federal HS in my LCP. I went back to look at the ballistics that are posted on Brassfetcher, and this is what they have:

Cartridge : Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok Personal Defense (Load # PD380HS1H)

Firearm : Kel-Tec P3AT with 2.75" barrel length.

Calibration : 8.1 ± 0.05cm and 582 ± 0.500 ft/sec impact velocity.

Shot 1 - Penetrated 12.5 ± 0.031"

Shot 2 - Exited block at 11.9 ± 0.031"

Shot 3 - Penetrated 12.4 ± 0.031"

Shot 4 - Penetrated 11.9 ± 0.031"

Shot 5 - Penetrated 12.1 ± 0.031"

Average impact velocity = 843 ± 0.500 ft/sec

Average recovered diameter = 0.469 ± 0.0005"

I live in AZ, so worrying about heavy clothing is not a real concern for me. Anyone that I would ever have to shoot will probably be shirtless. ;) Isn't 12" of penetration sufficient for a SD round? Notice is only expanded to a little over .45... Am I missing something? I am possibly more confused than ever... Guess I will be carrying my 45 until this all gets straightened out. :)
 
You might want to consider carrying the .45 anyway. If you ever actually need a gun you'll be glad you brought something full size (I wouldn't be giving you that recommendation if I didn't practice what I preach). Carry the LCP as a BUG available to your weak hand. I carry my BUG in a front pocket so that I can put my hands in my pockets and begin my draw while looking totally casual. When doing so the big gun then becomes the BUG. Two guns will give you options, including the fastest reload, the New York reload, that one gun will never give you.

As far as those Hydra-Shoks go, those test results look impressive to me. Only you can decide how much penetration is enough. I stick to 12"-14" (FBI protocol, IIRC), but will live with a little more or less. 10" generally is enough for civilian self defense, since shots are more likely to be frontal and less likely to involve barriers (excepting arms) than law enforcement scenarios. 12" gives you a little fudge factor. Those expansion numbers look ideal for a .380. IMO, a .380 JHP shouldn't expand more than that because a larger diameter will have a greater parachute effect and cause less penetration, and like I said earlier 12" is about ideal. You have to choose a balance between deep penetration, and the risk to bystanders. None of us really know what we will need ahead of time, so the best any of us are doing is making a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess).

The most important factor in selectin carry ammo is that it's 100% reliable in your gun. Second is accuracy and hitting POA. After that, gelatin gymnastics is the thing to consider last.
 
Last edited:
I can only report what I've seen in the cases I've worked. I wouldn't use HSs based on that (as described supra in detail), but I fully acknowledge that anything can fail - we're talking handguns here. There was a definite failure to adequately penetrate in this case, but - hey - I've seen cases where .45 FMJ went around the outside of a skull instead of busting through (and I wouldn't by any means say that they were inadequately penetrative).

Still, ball for me in anything under .38 Spl/9x19.
 
Thanks for the replies. I was also taught that 12" of penetration was ideal. I am starting to think that while it may have the energy to get the ideal penetration in gel (and soft tissue) the round may lack the mass to bust through bones and such that it encounters along the way, something that I do not know if FMJ vs. JHP will change. I like the idea of using the LCP as a BUG, but sometimes due to the circumstances, it is all I can carry. I know this is off-topic, but how does the M&P 9 matchup against say an XDM? or other similar polymer framed double-stack?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top