.380 load (Calling Erich)

[flop-shank]

ajpelz, I'm sure FMJ will work better against heavy bone, except I think it's probably more likely to deflect (that's a SWAG) and overpenetrate.

One thing that popped into my mind this morning after I responded to your post, was that if you haven't already proven 100% reliability in your gun with Hydra-Shok, you might want to look for online tests to see if there are .380 loads that expand more reliably when heavy cloth is involved. My thinking is that bullets that mushroom better through heavy clothing are more likely to expand well on the street whether heavy cloth is involved or not. If you have already determined Hydra-Shoks to be 100% reliable (by firing at least 100 rounds without a hiccup) I wouldn't waste my time worrying about it were I you.

I haven't tested Hydra-Shoks, but have found the Speer Gold Dot to be the best of any .380 loads I've tested (see the results in the Perma-Gel Test Results thread). I use a Gold Dot handload clone in my P3AT. My hunch is that the Hydra-Shok is slightly more accurate in more guns.

I certainly understand carrying a .380 as a primary. Circumstances sometimes force me to do the same thing.

 

[ajpelz]

I have run well over 100 Federal HS through my LCP without a hiccup, (and good thing because I did have to use the gun on a bobcat in the yard with my mouser cat) which was relieving since I have heard that 3ATPs have had trouble with the bullet. Come to think of it, my LCP has never had a hiccup of any kind with about 500 rounds through her. I would never carry a round that I have not sufficiently tested.

I agree with your SWAG that an FMJ would deflect and keep going more due to higher velocity at point of impact rather than stop as an JHP might when encountering a harder surface in body. The question that I have is which is better??? I think I might rather have the bullet stop than deflect (possibly hitting an innocent bystander worst case scenario) IMHO. That is why we have mags that hold multiple bullets right?? Well I guess I am in the market for a lightweight primary carry gun in 9mm (more likely) or 45 ACP. Any suggestions? Other than my 4506 which weighs a ton, especially when compared to Elsie Pea.

P.S. I am not setup to reload 380 at this time, and I have not seen Speer GoldDots in 380 since owning my Elise.... about a year now. If I ever come across any, I will snatch up as many as possible.

 

[Marshal Tom]

Having all that in mind, What do you carry most?

Erick,

What is your choice as a main carry? I looks like you have several that you switch off.

Tom

 

[Marshal Tom]

Having all that in mind, What do you carry most?

Erich,

What is your choice as a main carry? I looks like you have several that you switch off.

Tom

 

[flop-shank]

ajpelz, my thinking is that the rounded nose, plus less compressable nature of a FMJ would be what would redirect it if it didn't hit a bone from a fairly straight angle. Jim Cirillo talks about that phenominon extensively in his book, Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights. The sharp opening in the nose of a hollowpoint would, I would think help it "bite" into a bone and track straighter if it's more compressible nature didn't allow the bone to stop it. IIRC, Erich has mentioned this before (earlier in this thread, I think). If not, perhaps he'll chime in with his thoughts. We sit on different sides of the .380 FMJ vs. JHP divide, but I respect and appreciate his insights. The more I study ammunition, the more I realize that people well versed on the subject oftentimes disagree on different nuances of it, so you'll have to decide for yourself where you stand on the FMJ/JHP question in this borderline cartridge.

FWIW, people underestimate the ability of bone to defeat bullets. One of my friends had an AK bullet go through his steel pot from the side, bounce off the upper left side of his skull, then the inside top of his helmet, deflect again off the right side of his skull and stop halfway out the other side of his helmet. He got cold cocked, but he lived and recovered fully.

As far as the question of compact 9mms and .45s goes, I'll let the autoloader guys answer your questions on that one. I'm a revolver guy and many others here know the square guns better than I do. I'd certainly think a new thread would be the best forum for that question. As an ammo guy, I'm not hot on the .45 ACP in general, and definitely cold towards it in less than full length barrels. JOMO.

 

[Erich]

Marshal Tom, it really depends on what I'm doing and how I'm dressed. I like DA autos and revolvers. Depending, I might have a Colt DS with handloads, a CZ RAMI with 124-gr +P Gold Dot short barrel rounds, a Ruger P90 with Hornady 200-gr +P TAP ammo, or some sort of a .357 with Silvertips or handloads depending on where I'm going.

flop-shank, what you say about bone makes sense - however, I recall the Hydra-shok bounced off the guy's skull. Nothing's perfect, I suppose.

 

[flop-shank]

Erich, recently I read, or heard (don't remember which) that the key word in "cranial vault" is vault.

 

[Jerry in SC]

In the late 80's, I owned a HK P7M8-K3 (.380 with multicaliber conversion) that would routinely chronograph the old Federal HS (95 grain, IIRC) load at 1080-1100 fps. It was the "fastest" .380 firearm I've ever owned. Of course it was almost as large as a regular P7, but having the .32 ACP and .22 LR conversions were a lot of fun. Oddly, the .32 was the most accurate of the bunch.

After seeing the dismal velocity from a Seecamp, I don't carry a .380 anymore.

 

[Erich]

Back from the dead with some chrono data from an LCP:

Albuquerque City Range, 5950 feet above sea level, 78° F:

Winchester white box 95-gr flat-point ball
Mean 900.2 fps/extreme spread 31.47 fps/standard deviation 11.87 feet per second

Federal 95-gr ball
M 851.0/ES 28.05/SD 9.94

Remington 95-gr ball
M 890.6/ES 39.06/SD 15.19

Fiocchi 95-gr ball
M 808.7/ES 63.96/SD 26.15

58° F:

Speer Blazer Brass 95-gr FMJ
M 779.8/ES 41.45/SD 15.52

PMC 90-gr FMJ
M 846.1/ES 36.25/SD 14.79

Double Tap 95-gr FMJ
M 985.7/ES 64.82/SD 24.12

I've got a couple more brands to chrono still.

 

[WR Moore]

Round nose slugs not only deflect, they occasionally push blood vessels out of the way. Quite awhile back, a gent in my apartment complex got shot in the mouth with .45 hardball during a gun cleaning party. The round entered the mouth (lost at least one tooth), grooved the tongue and exited through the neck without serious damage. Major blood vessels were gently pushed to the side.

I used to have a newspaper clipping on an incident where a cop shot a knife wielding teen in the forearm to disarm him. Slug deflected off the forearm bones, the upper arm bone, hung a hard left and traversed the chest cavity from left to right, cutting the blood vessels over the heart in the process, and lodged in the right bicep.

 

[BlackSky]

So from what I've been reading the Buffalo Bore 100 grain hard cast lead flat nose +P could be a pretty effective and potentially devastating round. The problem is finding a weapon that is sturdy enough to reliably and safely shoot it.

I got a few boxes of this ammo and recently got a Sig P230 (1992, blue). I think this gun is a bit more robust than the LCP and other micro/plastic mouse guns.

Do you all think the Sig is beefy enough to handle these monster rounds?

 

[ajpelz]

Back from the dead with some chrono data from an LCP:

Albuquerque City Range, 5950 feet above sea level, 78° F:

Winchester white box 95-gr flat-point ball
Mean 900.2 fps/extreme spread 31.47 fps/standard deviation 11.87 feet per second

Federal 95-gr ball
M 851.0/ES 28.05/SD 9.94

Remington 95-gr ball
M 890.6/ES 39.06/SD 15.19

Fiocchi 95-gr ball
M 808.7/ES 63.96/SD 26.15

58° F:

Speer Blazer Brass 95-gr FMJ
M 779.8/ES 41.45/SD 15.52

PMC 90-gr FMJ
M 846.1/ES 36.25/SD 14.79

Double Tap 95-gr FMJ
M 985.7/ES 64.82/SD 24.12

I've got a couple more brands to chrono still.

Good data, Thanks for posting it.

I am quite surprised at the Fiocchi velocity. My experience with their brand in the past is that they load hot, consistent ammo. Seems to not be the case with this caliber. Rather slow and a large ES.

Was there one brand that your gun seemed to prefer over the others?

 

[Treeman]

FWIW, Lot to lot variations seem to be the norm. I have a batch olf Rem Ball that averages about 980fps from my P3aT......My Winchester White Box is only doing about 815.......but since my Keltec feed the WWB okay I have switched to it for carry simply because I like the meplat on their bullet.

 

[SLR777]

Diggin up info on 380 I want to take a minute and say thanks all.

 

[MWAG]

i load a 115gr FMJ bullet over 3.6gr of W231. i like the heavier bullets and so does my all steel, old school, single action AMT 380.

 

[BigRich315]

i load a 115gr FMJ bullet over 3.6gr of W231. i like the heavier bullets and so does my all steel, old school, single action AMT 380.

What kind of numbers do you get out of that load? I haven't started loading yet but I've thought about one like this and possibly a Gold Dot version.

 

[KSCowboy]

Hey Erich!

Last fall I posted #55 and #84 on this thread about my 120 grain truncated cone load for the 380. Unfortunately the penetration test proved that it was way too much of a good thing. Shortly there after I had gall bladder surgery, hunting seasons started, etc., so I didn't get to follow up in a timely manner.

But I came across a different gun that is almost exactly the same dimensions a Taurus 709 Slim in 9mm. This really intrigued me and I eventually researched and handled one and then purchased it. The picture seems a little weird as the lines I drew to capture the dimensions really do contain the guns they don't "color outside the lines" as they appear. In other words they really do fit in the dimensions noted. I have thoroughly tested this gun and it is now my replacement for the 380.

The Speer Gold Dot load of 124 grain clocks at 1047 fps and performs well in my recent penetration test. Fully penetrates 3 gallon water jugs, makes a puncture in #4 but is contained in #3. This bullet beautifully mushroomed to .564.

 

[Erich]

Hi KSCowboy,

I find dimensional photos like the one that you posted to be really persuasive - the width dimensions would be helpful, FWIW.

Similar comparison pic between a DS with Badger stocks and a CS:

I agree that the compact 9s are a treat - the only .380 I use is the LCP, which is smaller and lighter than any 9x19 . . . and which I only use for really deep concealment. Most of the time, as you note, there are modern 9x19 pistols that carry just as well as old-time .380s and hit a lot harder. (And are cheaper to practice with! )

I run that same Speer 124-gr +P short barrel Gold Dot load in my 3" RAMI (modified the stocks to make it thinner), from which it does 1180 fps - I've got a couple more boxes that should get delivered today, in fact, from Top Gun.

 

[KSCowboy]

Erich,

I got the idea of the dimension box pictures from some you posted one time. You're right it is a great way to illustrate the comparison. I tried to do a photo comparing the thickness of the two but couldn't get them posed well. As the Taurus is a single stack the thickness is almost identical.

I'm using the non +P load that's why the slower velocity. It is what I got a good volume deal on and "issued" to both of my daughters. One has a Walther PPS that is of very similar dimensions (I should get it out and do a comparison with the Taurus). She has very small hands with very short fingers and she really loves the fit of the Colt 380 but I really wanted her to have something with a little more power. I'm anxious to have her try the Taurus as I believe the grip is a little smaller than the PPS. The other daughter has very long fingers and fell in love with my S&W M&P 9c so she got it. Actually she's my step daughter so different gene pool. I had to go get me another M&P 9c as I really like it also.

Here's another post I started to continue the technical side of the thread about SD with cast lead bullets I think you were in on. Nothing to do with the pros and cons just my reloading experiments with cast wad cutters and swaged lead HPs in 44 Special:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...134016-44-special-handload-defense-loads.html

 

[Erich]

I was looking at your .44 post earlier today and got pulled away - thanks for reminding me to go back to it.

I first tried that GD load in a friend's PPS - that is an accurate little flat gun! I doubt anyone on the receiving end would sneer at the standard pressure loading . . . I'm all about the good deal. I use standard pressure stuff in my Star BM, by the way.