3rd Gen Smith self defense accurate, vs?

[PX15]

FWIW:

Here's a question that I've been meaning to ask for some time.

First, I'm a big 3rd Gen Smith pistol fan. I have a 3913, 3913LS, 5906,6906,CS9 and CS45.

Each of my 3rd Gen Smiths are absolutely reliable, and more than self defense accurate. I'm an old guy and my self defense practice distance is 7 yards, max.. My Smiths are all accurate enough to hit center mass of my target at that range, but none of them are capable (or I'm not capable) of really small groups, time after time.

In my over 50 years of owning firearms I've only had 5 very, very accurate 9MM pistols.. Three HK P7's, which have a reputation for such a thing, one Walther P99c/AS, and now a recently purchased HK P2000sk (V3). Each of these pistols just seem to just put 'em all in a tiny group in the X ring at my practice distance,time after time, a result my Smiths simply cannot match.

Now in fairness each of the HK's cost several hundred dollars each more than my Smiths, the Walther a bit less, but still more than the Smiths, so I'm not whining about the difference, just explaining what I'm talking about.

I mean do you think it's "tolerances", quality of the "barrel crown" or what that makes one pistol consistently shoot extremely accurately, and another be incapable of such groups?

My # 1 priority in a self defense firearm is absolute reliability, and I've simply never had a bad 3rd gen Smith in this respect. In a real life threatening confrontation I know for certain the difference in absolute accuracy of my HK's (sold the Walther) vs the Smiths won't make a dab of difference at self defense range with my "fight or flee" response kicking in high gear, but I'm just curious as to why out of 6 3rd gen Smiths none of them will come near the accuracy of the HK's?

As I said before you start nailing me, I LOVE my 3rd Gen Smiths, or I wouldn't have 6 of 'em, and I wouldn't be a long time member of this forum.. But I just thought other forum members might be able of offer a little insight regarding this issue.

Thanks!

Jesse

 

[1066]

I don't own an H&K, but I do own a SIG 226 that came with a test target showing three touching bullet holes. This SIG is just plain more accurate then my 3rd gen 9MM Smiths; I don't know why, it just is.

My S&W 659, however, comes pretty close, and I have to say that the S&W 39-2 is also a very accurate gun, but neither one is up to the SIG.

On the other hand I also have a SIG 220 and S&W 4526 45ACP will shoot just as well and maybe a tad better. My 4506 on the other hand is not quite as good as the SIG.

This makes me think it isn't workmanship, just maybe the particular gun.

I am curious if anyone else has some "test" results.

 

[andyo5]

My 4586 cannot equal my Kimber 1911 for group size, but it can still deliver a 10 shot 2.5" group at 25 yards ( with my handloaded jacketed rounds).
I practice on steel plates at 20 yards. they are approx. 5" wide by 7" tall.

 

[novalty]

I noticed the same thing with my 5906, I can get them close, but just by eye I have a hard time place the groups tight all the time. However, with the addition of the Crimson Trace Lasergrips, my groups have tightened up immediatly with the 5906. Part of the problem I believe with my 5906 is the weight, I have found that I can stay more consistent with my friends S&W Sigma 9mm and M&P 45. Think the lighter weight of the gun is easier on my arm. I don't if someone breaks into my house I will notice the weight as much, but I guess you never know til it happens.

P.S. If you want to get rid of some of those inaccurate 3rd Gens just let me know.

 

[18DAI]

Like you, I have HK's and 3rd generation S&W's. Fitting and quality of build would be my assesment of the comparable lack of accuracy between HK and S&W 9mm pistols.

My 3913 gets carried more than any other pistol I own due to it's light weight, perfect size, and reliability. The difference between it and my HK 9mm compact can be measured by less than 2". How much accuracy is enough? Dunno....that 3913 is accurate enough for the job, and bet your life reliable.

That said, I can discern NO difference in inherent accuracy between my HK and S&W 3rd generation 45's. Both shoot one ragged hole at 15 and 25 yards.

Maybe the EDM rifling in the 9mm S&W's is not as good as HK's rifling? Regards 18DAI.

 

[shawn mccarver]

FWIW:

Here's a question that I've been meaning to ask for some time.

First, I'm a big 3rd Gen Smith pistol fan. I have a 3913, 3913LS, 5906,6906,CS9 and CS45.

Each of my 3rd Gen Smiths are absolutely reliable, and more than self defense accurate. I'm an old guy and my self defense practice distance is 7 yards, max.. My Smiths are all accurate enough to hit center mass of my target at that range, but none of them are capable (or I'm not capable) of really small groups, time after time.

In my over 50 years of owning firearms I've only had 5 very, very accurate 9MM pistols.. Three HK P7's, which have a reputation for such a thing, one Walther P99c/AS, and now a recently purchased HK P2000sk (V3). Each of these pistols just seem to just put 'em all in a tiny group in the X ring at my practice distance,time after time, a result my Smiths simply cannot match.

Now in fairness each of the HK's cost several hundred dollars each more than my Smiths, the Walther a bit less, but still more than the Smiths, so I'm not whining about the difference, just explaining what I'm talking about.

I mean do you think it's "tolerances", quality of the "barrel crown" or what that makes one pistol consistently shoot extremely accurately, and another be incapable of such groups?

My # 1 priority in a self defense firearm is absolute reliability, and I've simply never had a bad 3rd gen Smith in this respect. In a real life threatening confrontation I know for certain the difference in absolute accuracy of my HK's (sold the Walther) vs the Smiths won't make a dab of difference at self defense range with my "fight or flee" response kicking in high gear, but I'm just curious as to why out of 6 3rd gen Smiths none of them will come near the accuracy of the HK's?

As I said before you start nailing me, I LOVE my 3rd Gen Smiths, or I wouldn't have 6 of 'em, and I wouldn't be a long time member of this forum.. But I just thought other forum members might be able of offer a little insight regarding this issue.

Thanks!

Jesse

It is all about how each model is spec'd and made at the factory.

The standard 3rd Gen guns are factory-spec'd to "combat accuracy," (four inch groups at 25 yards).

The target guns, such as 945, PC 1911, 952, M41, etc., will do 3 inch or less groups at 50 yards all day long.

 

[Loomis Guard]

Throw in a real PUCKER FACTOR and watch your groups Open UP!!!!!!!!!

LG.

 

[Center Villian]

I'm with LG

I'm with you LG. S & W 3rd gens are plenty good enough for combat shooting.

Sammy

 

[WR Moore]

Jesse,

Since you don't mention any group sizes, it's hard to make any real determination as to possible issues. Having been an instructor with 3rd generation issue pistols and my own experience with my personally owned pistol-if you can't group at 7 yards, it isn't exactly the weapon. The P7 is easy to shoot well because of excellent ergonomics and a comparitively light, crisp trigger.

Having said that, you might want to have the weapons checked by a S&W armorer. The factory specs for single action (SA) are 4-6 lbs. Actual weight isn't as big an issue as smoothness. Generally, after removing burrs and/or machine marks, a minor adjustment of sear spring tension will produce even DA/SA pulls. Aim for a SA pull of about 5 lbs. While a bit stiff for target work, that should result in minimal difference between DA/SA strokes and improving shot grouping.

 

[Loomis Guard]

The most important change I made to my 6904 was a set of wood Hogue grips!! The pistol feels better in my hand and The changeover from double to single action is much better.. Thats the hardest part of the 3rd generation pistols to get good at!!!!

L.G.

 

[tocohillsguy]

PX 15, I now also own some 3rd gens and P7s. The P7s are now my favorite compact pistol (and I mean compact not subcompact). The P7 has a significantly longer fixed barrel as compared to the 3913, and a slightly longer sight length. I would think that makes it inherently more accurate. I'm also better with the single action trigger. My first shot with the DA trigger of the 3913 typically isn't my best shot. I'm convinced grip size is also a factor. I'm better with the 6906 than with the 3913, but I improved with the 3913 when I went to the hogue grips. As for tack drivers, my CZ-85 is pretty hard to beat.

 

[PX15]

Jesse,

Since you don't mention any group sizes, it's hard to make any real determination as to possible issues. Having been an instructor with 3rd generation issue pistols and my own experience with my personally owned pistol-if you can't group at 7 yards, it isn't exactly the weapon. The P7 is easy to shoot well because of excellent ergonomics and a compairitiv light, crisp trigger.

WR:

As I said, ALL of my 3rd Gen Smiths are more than self defense accurate. But I just hate it that none of them seem capable, in my hands, of the small groups that seem to come easy in my HK P7's, P2000sk (V3) or even a Walther P99c/AS I had..

Here's a photo taken of a target shot from 7 yards last year with my P7. The 2nd target was shot recently from my P2000sk also from 7 yards... I simply cannot get any of my Smiths to shoot groups of this size.

My Smiths are accurate enough, but there's just something that makes a shooter feel warm and fuzzy in a smaller group.

I love my CS9, but truthfully the arrival of the awesomely accurate HK P2000sk has sent it to the gun safe..

Best Wishes,

Jesse

P.S. I got my CS45 out to compare the size of the white dot sights, and it's obvious the sights on the P2000sk are considerably larger than those of the Smith... Old eyes, larger sights, gotta help my groups.. I wish the Smith had larger sights too.

 

[WR Moore]

PX15- every 3rd generation S&W I've ever seen on our range is mechanically capable of the groups you showed at 7 yards. Those are all full size service pistols.

I feel your pain on the eye issues. If I want to see both sights I either have to use my "magic glasses" ( mechanics grind safety glasses with 1.5 diopter up top, distance vision in the middle and 2.25 diopter on the bottom) or not wear corrective lenses at all. I've often wondered why bigger sights aren't available. I haven't kvetched about stainless sights in a long time, they're easier to see.

A little minor tweaking on parts (making things fit more smoothly)/grips can do wonders to help you fit the weapon to your hand and how it operates. My wife's 3913 needed an aftermarket mainspring (hammer spring) to eliminate a really irritating hitch in the trigger stroke where the factory spring rubbed the frame. It would also slow the hammer fall and disturb the aim, so the spring replacement solved several issues. I expect the same issue exists in most, if not all, of the compact pistols.