4 digit HE 45lc
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tenntex32
Member
Okay then I'll give you 97% of the $125 purchase price after you shoot it!
are you a gambler? if so, ill sell it to you for half of the value of a real lc and you do the letter
tenntex32
Member
are you a gambler? if so, ill sell it to you for half of the value of a real lc and you do the letter
You mean real or original?
After all you paid $125 for a real .45Colt...........just may or may not be the original caliber.
Okay I'll take the chance for $62.50.
Pm me where to send the funds. I am assuming the $62.50 includes shipping and transfer costs?
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tenntex32
Member
so now the $64.000 question.. what is the value of a real lc ?
Oh man you are asking the wrong fella here. I'm a Model 1917 guy.
It is a very interesting question.
Oh, it's now a $62.50 question though. Are you already wanting to buy it back from me? If so I'll have to wait and see what the experts feel it might possibly be worth if it turns out it was originally chambered in .45Colt.
I'll get back to you if I do decide to sell it but for now I think I'll hold onto it.
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Welcome!
Which book are you referring to that indicated 11 were made in 45 Colt in that serial # range?
If you have a factory letter, other than saying it's special, what cartridge does it verify as the original?
1. The factory 45 Colts were not marked with the cal or cartridge. Many 455 British contract revolvers are not marked either. See this database:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...26646-455-mk-ii-revolver-research-thread.html
Go to post #223 for the latest updated database info, page 5:
2. .455 2nd Models made for the Canadians in .45 Colt:
By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, without a cartridge roll mark on barrel, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, 3rd ed., pg. 203]. All of these that are known are in the 70XXX range.
Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916; likely "over run" guns from the above order. All these.45 Colts were numbered above 40XXX.
3. Your gun was serviced at the factory 10-1951. Likely a replacement 45 Colt barrel and cyl was installed and the entire gun was refinished. The 41 stamped high up on the grip frame is just an assembler/inspector stamp and of no help.
4. The recoil shield on your gun may not be shaved off at the top half of the recoil shield. The factory would have had a difficult time retaining the headspace with a shaved recoil shield just by replacing the cyl.
5. The black rings at the beginning of the chamber throats are the transitional tapered shoulders in all cyls for cartridges with a rolled crimp. The 45 ACP is the only exception and has a square cut shoulder because it has a taper crimp and must head space on the cartridge mouth. Shown here in tenntex32's 1917 45 ACP cyl:
6. You have an extremely nice 455 2nd model that went to war across the pond, made it back to the USA, converted to 45 Colt properly with a brand new factory installed cyl at the factory, and treated to a factory finish* and 45 Colt cyl.
*After WWII, the factory also polished the rebound slide stud flush because that's the way they finishing new guns after the war.
Which book are you referring to that indicated 11 were made in 45 Colt in that serial # range?
If you have a factory letter, other than saying it's special, what cartridge does it verify as the original?
1. The factory 45 Colts were not marked with the cal or cartridge. Many 455 British contract revolvers are not marked either. See this database:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...26646-455-mk-ii-revolver-research-thread.html
Go to post #223 for the latest updated database info, page 5:
2. .455 2nd Models made for the Canadians in .45 Colt:
By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, without a cartridge roll mark on barrel, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, 3rd ed., pg. 203]. All of these that are known are in the 70XXX range.
Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916; likely "over run" guns from the above order. All these.45 Colts were numbered above 40XXX.
3. Your gun was serviced at the factory 10-1951. Likely a replacement 45 Colt barrel and cyl was installed and the entire gun was refinished. The 41 stamped high up on the grip frame is just an assembler/inspector stamp and of no help.
4. The recoil shield on your gun may not be shaved off at the top half of the recoil shield. The factory would have had a difficult time retaining the headspace with a shaved recoil shield just by replacing the cyl.
5. The black rings at the beginning of the chamber throats are the transitional tapered shoulders in all cyls for cartridges with a rolled crimp. The 45 ACP is the only exception and has a square cut shoulder because it has a taper crimp and must head space on the cartridge mouth. Shown here in tenntex32's 1917 45 ACP cyl:
6. You have an extremely nice 455 2nd model that went to war across the pond, made it back to the USA, converted to 45 Colt properly with a brand new factory installed cyl at the factory, and treated to a factory finish* and 45 Colt cyl.
*After WWII, the factory also polished the rebound slide stud flush because that's the way they finishing new guns after the war.
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tenntex32
Member
I'm still in at at your sale offer of $62.50. 
tenntex32
Member
Jim,
Is where the "49" is stamped on the left side upper forward grip frame a common location for original factory stamps for some variants? I do not see this area used for stamps on any of my M1917 examples that I own. Also, a 2nd Model .455 (a non-factory conversion to .45acp) that I used to own was not stamped in that area.
Nor is this area used for stamps on my commercial frame M1917, Brazilian M1917, 25-2, nor my pair of 28-2 examples. That's why it caught my attention right away.
Would it have been applied by or for an assembler/inspector when it was sent back for rework?
(Yes like an idiot with nothing better to do I just double checked all my N-frames.....but once again that's why the "49" on the OP's example caught my attention rather quickly.)
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I'm still in at at your sale offer of $62.50.
oh c'mon,, i did use a brand new set of harbor freight screwdrivers to take it apart
That type of stamp is not seen often.
However, now that you ask, it reminds of two others I've seen on guns with factory caliber conversions. Although they were stamped at the top of the rear grip strap. Could that possibly be a 45 instead of 49? Maybe the OP could look at it with magnification.
However, now that you ask, it reminds of two others I've seen on guns with factory caliber conversions. Although they were stamped at the top of the rear grip strap. Could that possibly be a 45 instead of 49? Maybe the OP could look at it with magnification.
i'll check it again but sure it's 49
tenntex32
Member
Here's another example that has the factory rework date code on the left side grip frame bottom and the two digits "43" stamped on the left side forward grip frame.
(It was posted by forum member Goring's S&W here: (See post #11 in thread link.)
S&W Factory Repair/Refinish Stampings)
I too recall seeing the added two digits on other examples having the normal style factory rework date codes as well.
(It was posted by forum member Goring's S&W here: (See post #11 in thread link.)
S&W Factory Repair/Refinish Stampings)
I too recall seeing the added two digits on other examples having the normal style factory rework date codes as well.
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factory caliber conversion example – post 1 of 2
I wholly support the recommendation made by several to request a Letter of Authentication and a search of the S&W Historical Foundation records. A preview of what may be found can be seen in post 2 of 2.
This Model 1917 Commercial was initially shipped in 1927 chambered in .45 ACP with fixed service sights. It was returned to the factory in 1949 and re-chambered in .45 Colt with target sights. A replacement cylinder and barrel is confirmed in the SWHF factory invoice in post 2 of 2 but is also apparent from the contrasting serial number font used compared to the original frame s/n.
Russ
I wholly support the recommendation made by several to request a Letter of Authentication and a search of the S&W Historical Foundation records. A preview of what may be found can be seen in post 2 of 2.
This Model 1917 Commercial was initially shipped in 1927 chambered in .45 ACP with fixed service sights. It was returned to the factory in 1949 and re-chambered in .45 Colt with target sights. A replacement cylinder and barrel is confirmed in the SWHF factory invoice in post 2 of 2 but is also apparent from the contrasting serial number font used compared to the original frame s/n.
Russ
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factory caliber conversion example – post 2 of 2
Based on the information below I support the belief that the OP's example was also returned for a factory conversion, including a replacement cylinder and barrel.
Russ
Based on the information below I support the belief that the OP's example was also returned for a factory conversion, including a replacement cylinder and barrel.
Russ
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tenntex32
Member
Beautiful example Russ. Thanks for the additional info and sharing it with us.
Can you tell us if there is a two digit stamp on your example on the upper forward left side grip frame?
And just because I am a M1917 junkie can you tell me if there are any small eagle head/number inspection stamps on the frame or yoke in the areas where their assembly numbers are stamped?
Dale
Can you tell us if there is a two digit stamp on your example on the upper forward left side grip frame?
And just because I am a M1917 junkie can you tell me if there are any small eagle head/number inspection stamps on the frame or yoke in the areas where their assembly numbers are stamped?
Dale
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is no star on this gun.
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tenntex32
Member
I have seen a description regarding the use of the factory rework star stamped on the butt. It has to do with the factory estimating cost of repairs and rework and the star was stamped once the customer agreed to the repair/rework estimate and the work was performed.
The diamonds on the grip frame and barrel tell us it did go back to the factory for rework. Assuming it even has any, the stars or (other symbols) can be stamped on any number of hidden places on the revolver such as the right side grip frame, backside of removable sideplate, under the star extractor, rear facing yoke flat, etc...
While an example may have a visible star on the butt indicating factory rework or repair it is not a definite for it to have received one during factory rework/repair.
(Of course it has been said that the same rework symbol may be used for multiple reasons as well.)
Having the SWHF factory rework information to marry up with the rework date stamps and rework symbols actually stamped on the revolver goes a long way with helping our understanding of some of the ambiguities surrounding the symbols and their meaning(s).
Hondo44 has a good description of the random rework star usage by S&W per Roy Jinks: (see post #27 in the following link.)
S&W Factory Repair/Refinish Stampings
"STAR USAGE:
On the bottom of the butt or forestrap following serial #, or left side of grip frame indicates a factory rework; began ~ 1912, declined and became sporadic in the early 1960s before the decline of date stamps per Roy.
Deviations: Roy Jinks once said that the star wasn't always used. A nickel .32 RP that was built pre-war went back post war and got a new barrel, cylinder and re-finish; it is not marked by the SN, but does have stars on the barrel, cylinder and yoke.
If you informed S&W that you didn't want the star stamp on the butt, the factory would stamp it on the left side grip frame under the grips, which fits with a few guns we've seen with the star on the grip frame."
The diamonds on the grip frame and barrel tell us it did go back to the factory for rework. Assuming it even has any, the stars or (other symbols) can be stamped on any number of hidden places on the revolver such as the right side grip frame, backside of removable sideplate, under the star extractor, rear facing yoke flat, etc...
While an example may have a visible star on the butt indicating factory rework or repair it is not a definite for it to have received one during factory rework/repair.
(Of course it has been said that the same rework symbol may be used for multiple reasons as well.)
Having the SWHF factory rework information to marry up with the rework date stamps and rework symbols actually stamped on the revolver goes a long way with helping our understanding of some of the ambiguities surrounding the symbols and their meaning(s).
Hondo44 has a good description of the random rework star usage by S&W per Roy Jinks: (see post #27 in the following link.)
S&W Factory Repair/Refinish Stampings
"STAR USAGE:
On the bottom of the butt or forestrap following serial #, or left side of grip frame indicates a factory rework; began ~ 1912, declined and became sporadic in the early 1960s before the decline of date stamps per Roy.
Deviations: Roy Jinks once said that the star wasn't always used. A nickel .32 RP that was built pre-war went back post war and got a new barrel, cylinder and re-finish; it is not marked by the SN, but does have stars on the barrel, cylinder and yoke.
If you informed S&W that you didn't want the star stamp on the butt, the factory would stamp it on the left side grip frame under the grips, which fits with a few guns we've seen with the star on the grip frame."
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