.40 S&W Ammo Question

[Pook]

Hi all,

I bought a 4053 in .40 cal. After asking about the 4053 on this forum, I received enough positive feedback about it that I went ahead and picked it up (thank you, forum members!).

It looks to me to be a great pocket automatic or glove box gun for traveling, but I do not know anything about the .40 cal (other than it seems popular with LE), having always been a "9mm person."

I have heard varyious opinions about the round, from it is "almost a .45" to it is a "watered-down 10mm," to it is a a "catridge that was designed to solve a nonexistent problem."

Can anyone tell me what advantage the .40 S&W has, if any, over the 9mm para or .45 acp? What other advantages does it have, if any, as a self-defense round? Now that I will be using the .40 cal for a self-defense piece and paracticing with it, I would like to understand its shortcomings/strengths.

Thank you!

 

[off road]

This is the best SD round of all time! There is a good reason most law enforcement agencies nationwide, use this cartridge....

It splits the difference between the 9mm and .45. Still has reasonably high capacity magazines like the 9mm, yet also makes a big hole like the .45. The 9mm uses the "light and fast" bullet principle, and the .45 uses the "slow and heavy" principle....again the .40 slits the difference between the two (best of both worlds!) Velocities are fairly high and bullets are medium weight, so you get more energy than the 9mm or the .45. History of the cartridge: .40 S&W - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For self defense, I like anything Hornaday Critical Defense! The "dirty little secret" that nobody wants to talk about, is the fact that hollow point bullets will pack up on heavy clothing, and fail to expand. Critical Defense bullets contain a plastic plug in the hollow point, that prevents them from plugging up. In a sense, they are "pre-plugged, and designed to expand under those condetions. Also, they are engineered for short barreled handguns. Reduced flash and blast, yet there is less velosity loss penalty to pay for having a shorter barrel.

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Product Line :: Critical Defense®

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail0715.html?id=129&sID=145&pID=1

For home defense, I like Glaser Safety Slugs which will break up on wallboard, and not kill your kids sleeping in the next room: http://www.shopcorbon.com/Glaser-Safety-Slug/500/500/dept

For practice, I just use some cheap Winchester FMJ ammo.

 

[Pook]

Thank You!

Thank you Off Road for the information and the useful links.

Pook

 

[scooter123]

Another proponent of the 40 S&W here. IMO it's an excellent compromise for Mass, Velocity, and Energy. It's widespread adoption by Law Enforcement just reinforces this viewpoint.

What I find a bit odd are those who lobby against this caliber, the arguments are that it's either too "snappy" or a severely weakened 10mm.

Whether a particular cartridge is "snappy" is dependent on factors like the mass of the gun it's fired from and the mass of the bullet fired. Personally, I find a hot 357 Magnum snappy, in comparison the 40 S&W is a cupcake.

As for it being a weakened 10mm, that's somewhat true. The original 10mm produced energy levels similar to the 357 Magnum, another caliber that presents a challenge for achieving proficiency. If you are contemplating a caliber for defense, IMO it's not wise to choose something that is difficult to shoot rapidly and accurately. Once recoil exceeds a threshold dependent on skill and strength, recovery is impeded and either accuracy or rate of fire will degrade. When the FBI did their initial testing of the 10mm they found that this threshold occured at about 1000 fps. with a 180 grain bullet for the majority of their shooters. As it happens, this is nearly the exact profile for a 180 grain 40 S&W. As for those who think this is weak, I don't know of one single person willing to step in front of one.

 

[Faulkner]

Good post off road.

The short version of what off road said is it gives you near .45 ACP performance in a 9mm sized gun.

 

[anomad]

The "dirty little secret" that nobody wants to talk about, is the fact that hollow point bullets will pack up on heavy clothing, and fail to expand.

The Box O' Truth #8 - The Rags O' Truth - Page 1

The box o' truth seems to agree.

 

[off road]

Notice that they show gelatin here, with and without clothing covering it. Note that the barrel length used is only 3"!

Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 40 S&W FTX™ - 40 S&W 165 gr. FTX® CRITICAL DEFENSE®

 

[ronmanci]

I have 4 or 5 boxes of hydra-shok 135grain that i've had 5 or 6 years. At the time they were good stuff. Should I upgrade?

 

[robertrwalsh]

Those will do the job if you can hit with them. Nothing will do the job if you can't hit. Shot placement is criteria #1. Adequate penetration is criteria #2. Everything else is almost academic.

 

[ronmanci]

Those will do the job if you can hit with them. Nothing will do the job if you can't hit. Shot placement is criteria #1. Adequate penetration is criteria #2. Everything else is almost academic.

Placement is not an issue. I practice more than most. But I do want to use the best Self and Home defense ammo. available. I notice a lot of .40 ammo a lot heavier than 135grains. I want to make sure I'm not missing something new on the market.....

 

[handgunner356]

There is nothing wrong with the forty, but I don't feel there is enough difference between the best 9/40/45 ammo that I'm going to get super excited about any one of them.

 

[Pointblank2U]

I originally was intrigued by the Hornady Critical Defense, but the more I read about it, the less I liked it. It has a history of faulty primers. I didn't believe it until it happened to me. It's expansion is moderate at best. The problem of material clogging the hollowpoint has been solved long about by the major manufacturers. Gold Dot, DPX and others all do well through four layers of denim.

 

[Larry from Bend]

Placement is not an issue. I practice more than most. But I do want to use the best Self and Home defense ammo. available. I notice a lot of .40 ammo a lot heavier than 135grains. I want to make sure I'm not missing something new on the market.....

You can search old .40 ammo preference threads here and find out what everyone prefers. I'm one of the few that use 135s for SD --- most everyone uses 165s to 180s --- or so they posted.

PS: There's ALWAYS something new on the market.

 

[brucev]

I bought a 4053 in .40 cal. After asking about the 4053 on this forum, I received enough positive feedback about it that I went ahead and picked it up (thank you, forum members!). Great pistol and excellent caliber. Shoot the hound out of it w/ good quality practice ammo. It will serve you very well.

It looks to me to be a great pocket automatic or glove box gun for traveling, but I do not know anything about the .40 cal (other than it seems popular with LE), having always been a "9mm person." LE likes the .40 S&W for the simple reason that it is an extremely effective caliber. With 180 gr. JHP's, it will penetrate like there's no tomorrow. You can go to the opposite end of the spectrum and use 135 gr. JHP's and you'll have lots of velocity and a bullet that will hit like a bomb as it opens up. Plenty of ammo choices in weight, bullet type, etc. Very commonly available in gun shops and (of course) Wal-Mart! Pick up a box of ammo everytime you go with your wife to buy groceries. My wife even buy's me ammo when she's buying groceries! How cool is that?

I have heard varyious opinions about the round, from it is "almost a .45" to it is a "watered-down 10mm," to it is a a "catridge that was designed to solve a nonexistent problem." If I remember correctly, the FBI (???) wanted something offering more than a 9mm with less recoil than the 10mm. S&W simply took a 180 gr. bullet and stuffed it in a casing that would hold enough powder to give the required velocity... a casing that would happily fit in a standard 9mm type handgun. The result was power, heavier bullet, magazine capacity in a handgun size that most people could use. Unfortunately the 10mm required a larger frame that only larger folks could easily use. As well the heavy recoil was not helpful for fast repeat shots, etc. The .40 S&W is a wonderful solution to the need for a large bore, high capacity, high velocity handgun round for LE and civilian use.

Can anyone tell me what advantage the .40 S&W has, if any, over the 9mm para or .45 acp? What other advantages does it have, if any, as a self-defense round? Now that I will be using the .40 cal for a self-defense piece and paracticing with it, I would like to understand its shortcomings/strengths. The 9mm is a good round. It is cheaper for practice and offers good power/penetration. Many folks simply prefer a heavier bullet and a larger bore. It is commonly available and affordable. The .45 ACP is a beloved favorite. It is big. It uses a heavy big bullet. It is a proven round. The handguns in which it is commonly chambered are commonly big. This helps tame recoil. Many people find it and the handguns in which it is chambered to be to large for them to manage. Finding ammo can be a pain. The .40 S&W offers high velocity, a larger bore with heavy (or if you prefer lighter) bullets, high capacity, easily controlled recoil and is chambered in a broad variety of handguns from full-sized to very small concealment type pistols.


Last year I bought a HD pistol. I'd been looking at different handguns and calibers. I chose a Glock G-22 in .40 S&W. Loaded with 180 gr. FMJ, it hits precisely POI = POA at 15 yds. With everything from 135-180 ammo it has given perfect function. My wife finds it a easy handgun for her to use. She could not easily handle a .45 ACP. I wanted something more powerful than a 9mm. If the 9mm had been the most she could have handled, it would have been fine. But she does very well w/ the .40 S&W, so that's what we bought. We chose a Glock G-22 because the manual of arms is simple and she finds the pistol to be easy for her to use. We were also impressed with the opinion of my identical-twin brother (now deceased) who was a LEO for 20 years. HTH.

 

[Lew Archer]

In the late '80s, the Federal Bureau of Investigation determined that the ideal handgun round was a .45 or 10mm round. Both performed very well in the testing protocols the Bureau developed in the wake of the 1986 Miami gunfight.

The 10mm was selected by the FBI over the .45 largely because it was considered to have greater potential for further development, being a newer cartridge.

During the development of the 10mm load for the Bureau, it was determined that a down loaded version could produce the desired ballistic results while affording the shooter a more controllable round. This lower velocity 10mm was the round that the Bureau issued.

Federal (IIRC) recognized that the ballistic performance of the FBI issued 10mm load could be realized using a 10mm sized bullet in a smaller cartridge case. A smaller case meant that the round could be used in a 9mm sized handgun. And, in such a gun, the shooter could have a 9mm sized weapon, with high mag capacity, and still have the ballistic performance comparable to the FBI issued 10mm load. Thus, the best of both worlds...the virtues of the 9mm and the .45 or the 10mm without their respective negatives.

Federal developed the .40 with Smith and Wesson...hence, the caliber is properly referred to as .40 S&W. I think the cartridge and the S&W pistol chambering it were announced in 1990 at the SHOT Show. Glock quickly brought out the models 22 and 23, beating Smith to production.

The first agency to adopt the .40 (with a S&W 1006, if memory serves) was the California Highway Patrol, circa 1990-92. The .40 is still the CHP round of choice.

Gradually, the .40 displaced the 9mm in American police service.

Some love the .40. Some hate it. Felt recoil is subjective. Depending on the weapon, the feel of the .40's recoil is snappier then the 9mm and, in a way, snappier then the .45 (which some perceive as more of a push then a snap).

To round out the story, the Bureau's adoption of the 10mm handgun was short lived, due to perceived problems with the S&W 1076. In the interim, the FBI issued the Sig P226 and P228 in 9mm. Overtime, the .40 established itself and, in 1997, the Glock 23 and 22, both in .40 S&W, became the standard FBI issued handguns. These two pistols remain the standard issue weapon.

Today, the .40S&W is the dominent caliber in American LE, though the .45ACP has gained ground in recent years and some agencies have gone to the .357 Sig. The 9mm is still the dominent round in European LE.

Bottom line: the .40 S&W is a good handgun round for self defense and LE.