.40 S&W loaded into .38 WCF?

[Dump1567]

So I was wondering if you can take the powder and bullet out of .40 S&W and load it into a .38 wcf case? Would it work?

Can I use a modern .40 S&W JHP bullet (pulled from a .40 S&W cartridge) in .38 wcf case? I believe these are .40 and I need .401 for .38 wcf, but was wondering what the results would be?

I've wanted to load some 38 wcf rounds for my 1926 Colt New Service, but haven't bought any bullets yet (have everything else). I have a bunch of old duty .40 ammo and was wondering if I could use the bullets and/or powder?

Thanks.

 

[Hang-Fire Hank]

NOT SAFE

Dump:
The only thing similar between those two cartridges is the bullet diameter. The differences:
1. 38-40 (38WCF) bullet needs a roll crimp groove for the case mouth to be "roll crimped" into the bullet, so after firing the 1st cartridge the other bullets won't jump forward somewhat tying up the revolver cylinder.
2. The cartridge case may be simply tapered crimped into a 40S&W bullet.
3. Powder capacities of the two cartridge cases is quite different. The 38WCF is much larger & uses a slower burning rate powder.
5. It's possible the 38-40 cartridges you have may be loaded with black powder, which wouldn't be needed in your 1926 Colt New Service.

Obtain a reloading book that has both cartridges for correct loading data.

Good luck, stay safe, Hank M.

 

[Wise_A]

Dude, seriously...bullets are cheap. Brass is cheap. Powder is really cheap.

You know what's expensive? Glass eyes.

 

[DWalt]

"So I was wondering if you can take the powder and bullet out of .40 S&W and load it into a .38 wcf case? Would it work?"

I am not sure why anyone would want to do that, but yes, it would work.

 

[Alk8944]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

What Dwalt said. While there is no practical reason to do so there would be no hazard in doing so except possibly a squib from such a small charge volume in the large .38-40 case.

I swear that many who want to sound so authoritative have never loaded a round in their life except on a keyboard!

 

[scooter123]

One thing you may want to keep in mind is that the 38 WCF was developed before Jacketed bullets were common or even in use. So, while your Colt New Service was made in 1926 it's probably likely the barrel uses the shallower rifling typical for shooting with lead bullets. As a result you may find shooting jacketed bullets produce disappointing accuracy. However, every barrel maker at that time had their own approach to what was the "best" method of rifling and you may also find your Colt shoots fantastic with jacketed bullets.

Other than that I see no harm at all in using 40 caliber load data for the 38 WCF.

I will note that Position Sensitivity could be a factor you'll need to test for due to the difference in case volume. As I discovered once when I tried loading 38 special with SR7625 some powders can be position sensitive enough to produce a large swing in produced velocity. In my case holding the barrel pointing straight up prior to firing resulted in a 700 fps velocity and pointing the barrel down resulted in a 400 fps velocity. This was rather concerning because I was loading with 125 grain plated bullets and 400 fps was low enough there was a real potential a bullet could squib in the barrel.

BTW, I now load my 38 specials with Vihtavouri 3N37 and while rather expensive it is not at all position sensitive, meters wonderfully, and is clean shooting with excellent accuracy. Down the road when I run out of SR7625 it will probably become my "goto" powder for all my centerfire semi auto range loads. I currently have tested it in 9mm with 124 and 147 grain plated bullets and it's worked very well. If you have some of this powder on hand I would suggest you try it in your 38 WCF loads using data for a 40 S&W. Should do all you need as long as you stay within the Min/Max envelope.

Second note, if you want a Cowboy load there is data for the 38 WCF available using lead bullets and in this particular application you will want to use the powder(s) recommended and DO NOT use jacketed or plated bullets in a Cowboy load because these are typically rather low energy loads. So stay with either lead or polymer coated bullets for the Cowboy loads.

 

[Wise_A]

I swear that many who want to sound so authoritative have never loaded a round in their life except on a keyboard!

If you didn't have the same reaction to this

I have a bunch of old duty .40 ammo and was wondering if I could use the bullets and/or powder?

that I did, the problem ain't with me. It's nothing to do with forty-shorty being the ancient, low-pressure .38-40 made new in a compact, high-pressure autoloading case.

The problem is having an unknown component in your ammunition.

The rest? Screw it. If saving $4/box is worth the time it takes to pull 50 bullets, go for it.

 

[2152hq]

re: the powder charge switch.
I assume the factory loads use a propietary powder, but a quick check of a couple reloading charts using common available powders for comparison shows there are at least a couple that the two calibers have in common depending on bullet weight of course.

Just looking at those, the max charge in the 40 is still under the minimum for the same bullet weight used in the 38-40.
titegroup in 40S&W is MAX 4.0gr,,in the 38-40 MIN is 5.0
HP38 in the 40 is MAX 4.8,,,in the 38-40 min is 5.8

SEEMS like you'd certainly be under min load for the 38-40case,,but maybe too far for the jacketed bullet. A stuck bullet in the bore perhaps.

The thin wall mouth of the brass won;t easily hold onto the jacketed bullets w/o a roll crimp. That can be a problem.
I load both 38-40 and 44-40 and there isn't much there for bullet tension. It needs at least a mild roll crimp.

It can work I guess,,but more possible problems & issues than it's worth IMO.
40S&W is popular,,trade/sell it off,,buy some 38=40 componets

Just me.

 

[rwsmith]

I've never loaded .38 wcf or .40.......

But I swannee if the bullets are dimensionally the same I'd use them if I could, but I don't know about just arbitrarily switching the powder without knowing anything about it except that it came from a .40. A .40 has a chamber working pressure of 35,000 psi. The .38-40s is 14,000 CUP. Maybe it's a 'very light' load in a .38-40 but I would spend a few cents on some powder so I would KNOW what I was getting. If I KNEW what the powder was, that would be different. I'd reuse it all day long.

 

[Dump1567]

I have other powder I could use, I was just wondering if it could be done.

.40 S&W and 38-40 being about the same (180 gr bullet traveling around 900 fps), I thought using a quality modern JHP bullet would make a good self-defense round.

It wasn't about saving a Nickel, it was more about creating a SD round on par with the .40 S&W.

 

[murphydog]

I would foresee no problem driving a bullet meant for a .40 S & W at about 900-1000 fps, jacketed or not, out of your New Service. The usual caveat about using a published powder charge applies of course . Please let us know how it works out?

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Just IMHO... Probably a YES on the bullet, but a BIG "NO!" on the powder (unless you can positively identify it)! But, also a BIG "Why?" when powder is so inexpensive and the potential danger is so serious?

I found loads with HP-38 and UNIQUE ( Check out Chuck Hanks re: 38-40). If you can find any (and your Colt was designed for smokeless powders) there is a Winchester factory load at over 1K fps & 500lbs. That ought to cover any SD needs...?

Cheers!

P.S. Would love to see pictures of your Colt: how long is your barrel, anyway?

P.P.S. A LEE Factory collet-style Rifle Crimp Die (Custom) could probably be a wise investment, if available?

 

[Dump1567]

P.S. Would love to see pictures of your Colt: how long is your barrel, anyway?

This old thing.

I always have visions of carrying it, and thought a modern .40 JHP bullet would be just the ticket. Haven't gotten around to it yet due to the size (7 1/2").

Taffin also has some Ruger 1200 fps rounds for 38-40 (10 gr. of Unique). Wonder what the max recommendation would be on this old Colt (not that I really need anything that hot).

Oh, and I have powder, primers, brass, dies, etc. Just wanted to use some of these modern bullets, but it seems without the cannelure, I might get some jump.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Looks beautiful! Never knew much about Colt LARGE FRAME modern (1926?) revolvers.

Do check out Chuck Hawks re: the 38-40. He quotes a180gr load with modern Winchester brass, CCI primers and 7.4 gr UNIQUE giving 846 fps out of a 4.5" revolver... Your 7"+ should easily get you safely near the velocity and energy levels you desire. There are many 40 cal bullets with cannelures, and/or a tool? Cylinders look to have a little "extra room" to work with...

Please do let us know what success you enjoy*

 

[reddog81]

Have you loaded 38 WCF before? Duplicating .40 S&W should be pretty easy using load data from any manual that has data for that round.

The problem with .38 WCF is the thin necks. Getting good neck tension on the cartridge has been one of my reloading nightmares. I seem to get as many crushed necks or loose bullets as I get useable rounds. Maybe I should try some jacketed bullets and see if that makes a difference.

 

[scooter123]

Having seen the pics of "that old thing" I would say you most definitely want to stay within the parameters for a Published 38-40 load. That old thing is just too pretty to risk damaging. Note, since the production date for your New Service was 1926 I think it would be safe to assume that it was intended to use smokeless powder. So the key aspect here is to keep the produced pressures within the parameters for the 38-40.

The biggest issue is finding published data for the 38-40. In my collection of load manuals I found two listings for Smokeless Powder loads.

One is a listing for use in a modern Ruger Blackhawk in the Hornady 9th and it's worth noting that Hornady is specific in these loads being used in a MODERN revolver capable of tolerating higher peak pressures. All of these recipes feature the 40 caliber Jacketed XTP bullets in 155, 180, and 200 grain versions using moderate to slow burning handgun powders, ranging from Unique to IMR 4227. Also noteworthy is that Hornady doesn't publish produced pressures with their load recipes.

The second listing was in the Speer #14 and is a Cowboy Action Shooting load table. This means all of the Bullets listed are Hard Cast Lead and this data should NOT be considered useful for use with Jacketed bullets. Some good news is that the revolver used for working up these loads was a 1923 vintage Colt New Service. I will also note that they pointed out issues with this particular case volume when slow burn rate powders were used. Specifically issues with wide variations in velocity unless the loads were well over the published pressures for the 38-40. I will also note that Speer mentions specific problems with the cases collapsing when a combined Seat and Crimp operation was tried. Something I've also found to be a problem with 38 Special and 357 Magnums, so plan on seating and crimping in SEPARATE stages.

Now to sum it all up. Considering the age and value of your New Service I wouldn't even consider trying to duplicate a modern 40 S&W equivalent load in 38-40. So forget about trying to work up a SD load for your New Service. Instead use the Speer load data for Cowboy loads, get yourself some Hard Cast lead bullets in the 40 caliber and just have fun doing some shooting at the range with your New Service.

I will also note that if you want to get a bit Old School and shoot some Black Powder the original load for the 38-40 was 38 grains of Black Powder with a 180 grain bullet of .401. inch diameter. Using a modern Black Powder (not an equivalent like Pyrodex) I would suggest trying FFF and starting with 35 grains of powder. The reason why I am suggesting 35 grains is simply because modern Black Powders are made so well and consistently that FFF grade powder is a bit more efficient burning than the Black Powder back in the 1870's so you should back off on the charge about 10% just to be safe. Finally if you do decided to build some Black Powder loads please remember that EVERY Black Powder load MUST BE COMPRESSED. Failing to take care to do this can result in really serious spikes in produced pressure, as in a possible Kaboom. So when seating your bullets set your press up so that you can "stall" the bullet in the case on top of the powder charge. Basically set the seating die well DOWN in the die holder so you can feel the bullet hitting the powder charge as you close the press and stop at the point where you cannot push the handle down any more unless you stand on it, do NOT set the press in a normal fashion to control the OAL. This does mean that the powder charge will control the OAL instead of the press but with a consistent charge level and some time spent developing a "feel" for this you won't see a lot of variation in the OAL. Then after that stage crimp the bullet in a separate operation.

Note, only use a Black Powder load outdoors, using one of these load at an indoor range will likely get you asked to leave quickly and never return. Because these loads will produce enough smoke that it can clog HEPA filters rather quickly and HEPA air filters are NOT cheap. However if you are shooting a Cowboy load it can be a real hoot to shoot what the Cowboy's actually used and see how that charge of smoke can totally hide your target after just one shot.

PS; the original 45-70 Government with it's 70 grain charge of Black Powder was so well compressed that the cases were filled with powder nearly to the top and the powder was then compressed in a separate operation using a solid rod of steel or bronze. Then after the powder was compressed to it's maximum the bullet was pressed into the case and then crimped.

 

[Calliope]

I've wanted to load some 38 wcf rounds for my 1926 Colt New Service,

Buy some lead bullets, coated if you want, and some Unique. Follow a published load. Enjoy your vintage revolver.

 

[Wise_A]

I understand the concept of simply moving the powder charge from one to the other. For those that don't know, .38-40 and .40 S&W both use .401-caliber bullets of about the same weights, and have roughly the same ballistics.

The .38-40 does it by using a large cartridge case operating at lower pressure. The Forty Shorty does it with a small case, at high pressure.

In theory you could take the powder--any powder--and bullet out of a .40, put it into a .38-40 case, and the pressure could only decrease. Remember, you've vastly increased the size of the initial combustion chamber. Most load data lists .38-40 as taking a lot more powder than .40, at significantly reduced pressures.

But there's them words, in theory.

Hence, I think it's unwise for the following two reasons:

--Risking a squib is not a safe condition.

--The powder is an unknown component, which is never a good thing.

 

[bigggbbruce]

As Wise A said powder is the greatest unknown. But the charge from the 40 will be a light load at 1:1..