.40 vs 9mm

[alwslate]

The 10mm and later the 40 S&W were based on the 38-40 introduced by Winchester in 1874. It was known as a real man-stopper back then.

So was a .36 caliber round ball from black powder cap and ball revolvers

 

[Autonomous]

I keep reading that the .40 S&W is going the way of button shoes because of advancements in bullet designed has improved the 9mms performance to nearly .40 levels.
Why haven’t .40 caliber bullets been designed along the same lines?

There is more BS and bad information in the handgun world than just about anywhere else. Well, politics aside...
Bullet technology is advancing across the board. What you may be hearing is Bubba's version of modern projectiles have made 9mms more lethal. It's true modern 9mm bullets are more effective but so are the other calibers.

Modern premium bullets are tuned to velocity. Short barrel ammo will have a bullet designed to expand at a lower velocity. A short barrel projectile fired at standard barrel velocities likely will expand too rapidly and not get enough penetration.

Modern terminal ballistics have shown that bullet placement, assuming enough penetration, is everything at handgun velocities. This can go against intuitive thinking; the old '.45 ACP is x times deadlier than 9mm' does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Bill Lear]

I keep reading that the .40 S&W is going the way of button shoes because of advancements in bullet designed has improved the 9mms performance to nearly .40 levels.
Why haven’t .40 caliber bullets been designed along the same lines?

I guess the "querston" you need to "axe" is whether the 9mm is equal or better than the .40S&W.
The .40S&W was created to insure the bullet made it to, and through the vitals. The great fail of the 9mm was that an expanding bullet didn't have suds enough to punch a hole through a heart after going through a few extra layers - like arms and such.

A 180 grain .40S&W load is virtually the same as a 185gr. .45 auto load save for bullet diameter and has excellent penetration. The 9mm is plenty fine until it's tasked to do more than accomplish a front, through hit.
You be the judge.

I want a bullet that's not only heavy for caliber but also going supersonic - that's a .357 magnum, or a lightweight .40. Nine mm 115 and even 124 grain loads can, and SHOULD exceed 1,200 fps but sadly, often do not in civilian loads.
A 9mm 124 grain clocking 1,200+fps is quite impressive.

I keep hoping people will recognize and realize the issue is and has always been about velocity...even RN slug going fast enough destroys tissue the same as any expanding slug at subsonic or piddling transonic speed.

 

[K Frame Keith]

I have a lot of confidence in the .40 S&W and had a hand in selecting the caliber and ammunition in the HK USP platform for my agency. In the day, it out preformed available 9MM ammunition. I liked the combination of a large round and higher magazine capacity than available .45 weapons. I felt it was a good compromise. Most officers had little problem with the recoil, but a few marginal shooters did.
Having said that, I don’t currently own a .40 since I have .45’s.

 

[alwslate]

124 gr FMJ at 1200 fps and 115 FMJ at 1300 fps out of standard size 9mms with 4" or longer barrels is available. You just have to look a bit and don't take published velocities for granted. Once again, the price of a chronograph is money well spent.

 

[walnutred]

IMHO the long range thing is a red herring. It's all about body armor penetration at any range, not hitting skinny insurgents wearing a sheet across open desert. There are some interesting videos out of the Ukraine conflict that show just how effective modern body armor has become in stopping intermediate rounds like 5.54x39, 7.62x39, and, I would guess, 5.56x45.

I think it's all about having something not readily used or adapted by civilians.

 

[Autonomous]

Many of us need to put intuition aside and study up to date terminal ballistics. A lot of smart people and agencies are trading their heavy, badass woods revolvers for 10mm pistols with faster, more accurate follow-up shots.
Bullets don't cause significant hydrostatic shock till ~ 2,200 fps.
Except for a few hot, light .460 S&W loads at close range, it doesn't happen with handgun cartridges.
From a handgun it's all about shot placement and adequate penetration.
Languishing in third place is bullet expansion.

 

[cracker57]

Are you saying that BEFORE or AFTER you shoot a

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-340-pd

using

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN

is "enjoyable and more accurate to shoot because its a smaller caliber" when compared to say, perhaps, an N frame?

I am saying if you compare apples to apples and are shooting the same gun in both calibers the 9mm will most likely be shot better than the same gun in 40 cal. by most people.

now if we compare apples to oranges and shoot a small mouse gun 9mm that weighs nothing then shoot a full sized 40 that weighs 5 times as much has a longer site radius one might shoot the 40 better.

 

[jschmidt]

The FBI tests/reviews drive department buying. 10mm ammo is more expensive and—according to the FBI—harder to shoot accurately.

The whole bullet design justification for the FBIs decision to reverse itself seems like face saving to me. Nobody likes to admit they screwed up and I think that's even more true for LEOs

 

[biku324]

None the above reflects my experience in 3 agencies.

 

[old tanker]

...The bean-counters are the main reason for the move to 9mm for agencies.

I believe today's ammo is maybe 5% more effective that what I learned to shoot with in the early 1950s.

It is all marketing, rationalization, and justification. Physics says bigger is better and faster is better.

Bingo!!

The 9mm Luger cartridge was born roughly EIGHTY FIVE YEARS before the .40 S&W was born...

Because the German Army did not think 7.65 Parabellum was big enough.

 

[LVSteve]

124 gr FMJ at 1200 fps and 115 FMJ at 1300 fps out of standard size 9mms with 4" or longer barrels is available. You just have to look a bit and don't take published velocities for granted. Once again, the price of a chronograph is money well spent.

Indeed, shop around. There is a recent video on youtube of a guy chrono and gel testing a newish Winchester 124gr JHP load. That round was trucking at over 1275fps from a 5" M&P, big surprise to him and most who commented on his video.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lSbHijfza0[/ame]

 

[someguyfromnc]

The FBI tests/reviews drive department buying. 10mm ammo is more expensive and—according to the FBI—harder to shoot accurately.

The whole bullet design justification for the FBIs decision to reverse itself seems like face saving to me. Nobody likes to admit they screwed up and I think that's even more true for LEOs

Yeah its always something to deflect away from human error.
I'm honestly wondering if they will ever update their testing standards too. Back in 1986 the obese rate was 1 in 200. Now its 1 in 2. People are much fatter. If they were actually serious about putting down humans you'd think they would monitor that 14-16 inch sweet spot.

 

[LVSteve]

Yeah its always something to deflect away from human error.
I'm honestly wondering if they will ever update their testing standards too. Back in 1986 the obese rate was 1 in 200. Now its 1 in 2. People are much fatter. If they were actually serious about putting down humans you'd think they would monitor that 14-16 inch sweet spot.

I think they are more concerned about complete pass-through given the litigious nature of our society these days.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Well, the NMSP gave up their 357 Sigs for 9mm - it was about ammo & training costs.

Yep.

And so it goes. It's the economy of scale. Most ammo manufacturers build what they can sell. 40 and 357 Sig isn't a military cartridge so no ammo for you. Does anyone get it yet?

I got it. 9mm is your de-facto SD cartridge. Loaded 100 today for the range. No, I don't load my SD ammo.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

My personal belief is that modern ammunition DESIGNED FOR DEFENSE is way more than "5% more effective" than that which was available even over a period as short as the last two decades, especially in the smaller handgun calibers...?

There is no doubt that there is way too much hype and the typical marketing b.s. going around, but bullet development alone has made giant strides in effectiveness: the 380acp was considered as "borderline" for self defense not too long ago...

This is not to say that good ol' 45acp ball or a 9mm 115gr fmj somehow just won't still get the job done, because they will: there are often just better alternatives.

Cheers!

P.S. If you really want to consider ammunition development over the last decade (or two?) look at the rifle calibers. Not that everyone really needs to be able to shoot game (or targets) at 800 yards, but it is surely more easily(?) attainable today...

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Acorn, I came to the same conclusion years ago, then I noticed all these good firearms chambered in 40 being sold at low prices because everyone seemed to think the same way, I have 9mm and 45ACP firearms, what need do I have of 40mm. Yawn. I collected LEO trade ins and saw a CHIPS 4006TSW for $250. OK why not. Shooting the 4006 was different enough and enjoyable enough to justify the different round. I tried it and I liked it. Several long term shooters with plenty of 9mm and 45ACP handguns who tried the 4006 went and bought their own 4006 right away. 40 caliber and the 4006 in particular is recommended. The round does not seem to be going anywhere soon. Join, you know it is your destiny.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

"Join, you know it is your destiny."

And you can use the same bullets & dies when you move on to 10mm as well!

Cheers!

 

[Racer X]

One thing to consider, is that many 40 platforms can easily shoot 9 with just a different barrel, recoil spring and magazine. My Sig P226 is that way. Stock barrel, not even a conversion barrel. Glocks just need an offset conversion barrel and magazine. I can go on.

 

[DUSTYDOGDAN]

I like S&W 3RD Gen Autos and several years ago I was noticing a lot of really nice 40 S&W 3 Gens being sold for cheap. These pistols were as new in box as they come. My theory was back in the mid 1990's several people bought 40's because it was the hot new thing and then they really didn't shoot them very much and they started trading them in in the 2000's.
It's very hard for me to pass on a nice 3RD Gen if it as new in the box with all paperwork so I have close to 20 3RD Gen Smiths that are 40 cal. In fact, one of my favorite carry pistols is a 4013 single stack that was a Saint Louis City Detectives pistol that was given to his son in law and he sold it to me.
I also bought a LE trade in M&P 40 that we carry in the family SUV on summer vacation.
I hope the ammo manufactures keep making the 40 and one day I wouldn't be surprised if there is a second act for this round.
PS I wasn't one of those people that had to have the next cool round and never had a 40 until I bought a police trade in 4006.
I had bought a 3913 Lady Smith and CS45 Chiefs Special new in the mid 1990's and after I bought the 4006 I started my collection of these great 3RD Gen Smiths in many different calibers.