4006 Prototype

[1775usmarine]

Won a 4006 off that one site and it was listed as a prototype. It's serial is xOOO, has a bobbed chrome hammer, and no cartridge marking on the barrel.

Google fu only came up with one other. Serial x526 that has the adj sights and spur hammer. According to that auction it sold for 2k not including premium and fees.

Anybody have any other info on these x serialed 4006's? The mothership via email has no idea. This might be the first 3rd gen I own where I pay the $100 for a letter.

Will update this thread once I have the 4006 in my hands to inspect.

 

[Heymatt]

Different sn from yours ( I peeked at completed auctions ),and the one you mentioned, magazine cover model.

 

[skjos]

Looking at the auction for serail number X526 that was mentioned in the original post, I find it interesting that a 9mm magazine is included. I'm wondering if that is an error on the auction house side, or if the prototypes were tested with modified 9mm magazines?

 

[1775usmarine]

Looking at the auction for serail number X526 that was mentioned in the original post, I find it interesting that a 9mm magazine is included. I'm wondering if that is an error on the auction house side, or if the prototypes were tested with modified 9mm magazines?

Don't quote me but I thought I found a thread here while searching that stated they did use modified 5906 mags. Either way will be interesting to hear more or find out when I get a letter done.

 

[JohnHL]

Looking at the auction for serail number X526 that was mentioned in the original post, I find it interesting that a 9mm magazine is included. I'm wondering if that is an error on the auction house side, or if the prototypes were tested with modified 9mm magazines?

The early 4006 pistols were produced with a magwell with ROUNDED rear corners, presumably so that 9mm mags could not be inserted.

Later production models got the SQUARED rear corners in the magwell (like the 9mm) and then the 9mm mags WOULD insert.

Mag in picture APPEARS to have ROUNDED rear corners and a 5906 (orange) mag follower.

As the YELLOW, first iteration, 40s&w follower had yet to be invented, this combination looks correct.

John

 

[st regis]

The factory literature has a picture of an x with 4 digit serial number.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

The experimental model 4006's serial number, shown on the cover of Shooting Times, Apr-1990, is X521 & has the rounded trigger guard.

The article also had a picture of the pistol that Winchester used to test the 40S&W cartridge they were developing for the 4006. It has a square trigger guard but its serial number is not clearly visible.

What type of trigger guard does the prototype X000 have?

.

That same Shooting Times, Apr-1990 article (below) mentioned what JohnHL stated about the rounded corners of the first 40S&W magazines.

It also mentions the other difference that the 40S&W magazines got, the indent for the top round, & the rib-like track that runs down the length of the magazine to reduce double stack resistance.

I don't know when the "early" 40S&W magazines lost the rounded rear corners & went to the square corners, like the 9mm, but additonally that had to have been when they got the bump on the front of the magazine to keep 40S&W mags from inserting in 9mm magwells.

My 4006, TFF65xx, which I have the original box & mags for, was made in Jul-1990 & its magazines have the square corners & front bump so the change was made before that.

.

As a side curiosity I just found out, while checking mags for this post, that my 4" 3566 Limited (356TSW which uses 5906 mags) will accept current revision 4006 40S&W magazines (with the front bump) inserted into its magwell because S&W milled it inside, with a groove, to not interfere with it. Probably so they could use the same frame for both the 356TSW & 40S&W Limited models?

.



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Experimental pistol Winchester used to test 40S&W ammo in
.


.
.

From Shooting Times, Apr-1990 article
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Differences between 4006 & 5906 magazines
.


.

 

[JohnHL]

That same Shooting Times, Apr-1990 article (below) mentioned what JohnHL stated about the rounded corners of the first 40S&W magazines.

It also mentions the other difference that the 40S&W magazines got, the indent for the top round, & the rib-like track that runs down the length of the magazine to reduce double stack resistance.

I don't know when the "early" 40S&W magazines lost the rounded rear corners & went to the square corners, like the 9mm, but additonally that had to have been when they got the bump on the front of the magazine to keep 40S&W mags from inserting in 9mm magwells.

My 4006, TFF65xx, which I have the original box & mags for, was made in Jun-1990 & its magazines have the square corners & front bump so the change was made before that.

Thanks, BLUEDOT for an extremely edifying post!

But mostly thank you for answering a question that I have been fruitlessly awaiting from Roy Jinks for some time: "When did S&W transition from the ROUND rear corners of the mag well to the SQUARE rear corners?"

You stated that your early 4006 (TFF65xx) has the later SQUARE rear cornered mag well.

My early 4006 (TFF5442) has the ROUND rear cornered mag well.

So it would appear that engineering change occurred VERY early in the 4006 production run as there is only about 1100 numbers between mine and yours.

BTW, my ROUND cornered mag well is relieved for the bump on the front of the magazine, so that would seem to indicate that preceded the ROUND to SQUARE change.

You have the box so I would assume your manufacture/ship date (June 1990) to be reliable.

I called S&W cust. serv. back in early 2016 and was told mine shipped February 1992 to the Taunton, Ma. PD.

That was when S&W was still willing to tell to where and whom a gun was shipped.

(As reliable as we can hope that information to be.)

We all know that S&W did NOT ship in serial number order.

But we can be pretty certain that the frame numbering machine DID stamp in numerical order.

SCSW #3 states that 4006 production commenced in 1990, but they don't say what month.

I don't know how long it took S&W to produce the intervening approx. 1100 frames between mine and yours, but by a combination of mathematical extrapolation and Wild A** Guesswork, it would seem the engineering change from ROUND rear cornered mag wells to SQUARE rear cornered mag wells probably occurred in the 2nd quarter (April, May, June) of 1990.

VERY early in the production sequence.

So that has been a big help to me as I have been wondering this for a very long time.

Thanks again!

Now the next big question in my mind is: "WHY?"

What motivated the mag well dimension change to allow the insertion of 9mm mags in a 40 cal. pistol when they made such a great effort to avoid mag and caliber interchange in all their other pistols, and initially these as well?

The search for bygone knowledge continues...

John

 

[1775usmarine]

The experimental model 4006's serial number, shown on the cover of Shooting Times, Apr-1990, is X521 & has the rounded trigger guard.

The article also had a picture of the pistol that Winchester used to test the 40S&W cartridge they were developing for the 4006. It has a square trigger guard but its serial number is not clearly visible.

What type of trigger guard does the prototype X000 have?

.

That same Shooting Times, Apr-1990 article (below) mentioned what JohnHL stated about the rounded corners of the first 40S&W magazines.

It also mentions the other difference that the 40S&W magazines got, the indent for the top round, & the rib-like track that runs down the length of the magazine to reduce double stack resistance.

I don't know when the "early" 40S&W magazines lost the rounded rear corners & went to the square corners, like the 9mm, but additonally that had to have been when they got the bump on the front of the magazine to keep 40S&W mags from inserting in 9mm magwells.

My 4006, TFF65xx, which I have the original box & mags for, was made in Jun-1990 & its magazines have the square corners & front bump so the change was made before that.

.

As a side curiosity I just found out, while checking mags for this post, that my 4" 3566 Limited (356TSW which uses 5906 mags) will accept current revision 4006 40S&W magazines (with the front bump) inserted into its magwell because S&W milled it inside, with a groove, to not interfere with it. Probably so they could use the same frame for both the 356TSW & 40S&W Limited models?

.



.
.

Experimental pistol Winchester used to test 40S&W ammo in
.


.
.

From Shooting Times, Apr-1990 article
.


.
.

Differences between 4006 & 5906 magazines
.


.

It has a round trigger guard. Should arrive thursday according to tracking.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Typo alert !!

My 4006, TFF65xx, which I have the original box & mags for, was made in Jun-1990 & its magazines have the square corners & front bump so the change was made before that.

You have the box so I would assume your manufacture/ship date (June 1990) to be reliable.

Typo alert:

Hi John, Yes, I do have the box, it has the Spec Order# 0186 which is Jul-1990, not Jun-1990 which I mistyped above, sorry.
(Specifically that's July 05 1990)

But that still narrows it down to a SN# range that we didn't know before.

Didn't you say that the CS40 & CS45 have the same magazine dimensions too & can be interchanged in the magwells?

Well they managed mostly to keep magazines out of the wrong pistols.

.

 

[ACEd]

Typo alert:

But that still narrows it down to a SN# range that we didn't know before.
.

4006 TFF0184 - 0295 102944
4006 TFF0535 - 0201 104402
4006 TFF4702 - 0187 104402
4006 TFF5055 - 0251 104402
4006 TFF5236 - 0199 104402
4006 TFF5237 - 0242 102946
4006 TFF6300 - 0193 104402
4006 TFF6388 - 0190 104402
4006 TFF6450 - 0187 104402
4006 TFF7365 - 0193 104400

1076 TFF7695 - SW 1992
1076 TFF8210 - no data
1076 TFF8452 - no data
1076 TFF9451 - 0199 105900
1076 TFF9503 - no data

 

[JohnHL]

Typo alert:

Hi John, Yes, I do have the box, it has the Spec Order# 0186 which is Jul-1990, not Jun-1990 which I mistyped above, sorry.
(Specifically that's July 05 1990)

But that still narrows it down to a SN# range that we didn't know before.

I heartily agree!

5 days in to July is close enough to June to be in the first half of 1990, so my guess about the mag well change from ROUND to SQUARE still seems to be 2nd quarter of 1990.

Somewhere in that span of approx. 1100 frames.

BTW, just to be clear, ALL 40 double stack mags have had ROUND rear corners (including the prototypes), never SQUARE, like the 9mm mags.

Only the mag WELLS were changed on the 40 cal. pistols from ROUND rear corners (which allowed the insertion of the 40 cal. ROUND rear cornered magazines but precluded the insertion of the SQUARE rear cornered 9mm mags) to the SQUARE rear cornered mag WELL (which allowed insertion of both the ROUND rear cornered 40 mags and the SQUARE rear cornered 9mm mags).

Didn't you say that the CS40 & CS45 have the same magazine dimensions too & can be interchanged in the magwells?

Well they managed mostly to keep magazines out of the wrong pistols. .

I did say that and it is true.

The CS45 debuted in 1998 on the large (.45) frame with a .45 sized mag.

The CS40 came along a year later, also on the large frame, and shared the .45 sized mag.

But that was a full 9 years after S&W abandoned its concern over mag/cartridge interchangeability with the allowance of the 9mm mag to fit in the 40 mag well.

And I still wonder why they did it, especially after expressing their concern over mag/cartridge interchangeability to the Shooting Times magazine's author.

Like most things, it probably has something to do with money.

John

 

[JohnHL]

4006 TFF0184 - 0295 102944
4006 TFF0535 - 0201 104402
4006 TFF4702 - 0187 104402
4006 TFF5055 - 0251 104402
4006 TFF5236 - 0199 104402
4006 TFF5237 - 0242 102946
4006 TFF6300 - 0193 104402
4006 TFF6388 - 0190 104402
4006 TFF6450 - 0187 104402
4006 TFF7365 - 0193 104400

1076 TFF7695 - SW 1992
1076 TFF8210 - no data
1076 TFF8452 - no data
1076 TFF9451 - 0199 105900
1076 TFF9503 - no data

Fascinating registry!

Certainly illustrates the S&W "scattershot" approach to shipping expedience.

Now if we only knew which 4006 pistols had the ROUND mag wells and which had the SQUARE mag wells we could narrow this conundrum down even further!

John

 

[ACEd]

Fascinating registry!

Certainly illustrates the S&W "scattershot" approach to shipping expedience.

Now if we only knew which 4006 pistols had the ROUND mag wells and which had the SQUARE mag wells we could narrow this conundrum down even further!

John

This may help or at least be of interest regarding first Production of 4006 (TFC9363-TFD3411). It also mentions a unique 4006 TFC9630 modified (adjustable sight on a 104402 which should have originally had a Novak sight) and shipped to Charles Petty on July 13, 1990.

And I will add the lowest alphanumeric 4006 S/N pistols I have observed. Note there was statement by one seller that his Product Code 102944 was an early CHP evaluation pistol.

4006 TFD1678 - 0242 - 102944
4006 TFD2175 - 0241 – 102944 - Early CHP?
4006 TFD3032 - 0241 – 102944 - C, Novak
4006 TFE7055 - 0184 - 104402

 

[colt_saa]

Looking at the auction for serail number X526 that was mentioned in the original post, I find it interesting that a 9mm magazine is included. I'm wondering if that is an error on the auction house side, or if the prototypes were tested with modified 9mm magazines?

Yes the prototype magazines were 9MM bodies with a different follower. Obviously the witness holes do not line up

It was the same frame and they needed a place to start. Other differences between this prototype and production magazines have been pointed out in posts before this one

1775usmarine is referencing the thread with my magazine in it

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Certainly illustrates the S&W "scattershot" approach to shipping expedience.

"shipping expedience"

I would have never guessed the sequentiality was that fractured.

.

 

[1775usmarine]

So here she is. She's a dirty girl. The slide release appears larger. The model and serial are laser engraved. Trigger return spring still there and unbroken.

 

[1775usmarine]

The mags that came with

 

[JohnHL]

WOW!

Is that a "hand-built" magazine follower?

Very cool!

That's history, right there.

I have some "test and evaluation" pieces from the S&W R&D unit, (a "special" 5906 slide, a "cut down and rewelded" 4506 slide for testing the 4516 concept, and a few other "test" pieces) and they are all as filthy (or worse ) than your prototype 4006.

I haven't tried to clean them because all that filth accumulated from testing for some of the best handguns ever produced.

The "crud" is history!

Nice acquisition!

John

 

[ACEd]

So here she is. She's a dirty girl. The slide release appears larger. The model and serial are laser engraved. Trigger return spring still there and unbroken.

Looks interesting - suggest you do a thorough cleanup with grips removed. There were reported problems with some of the early 4006 frames. Mag appears to be early 4006 variant not a 5906 based on round count (11 vs 14 or 15). Black follower is odd - early prod 4006 mags had yellow follower. As I recall, 6906 and early 14rd variants of 5904/5906 had black followers.