4013 mag issues *solved*

[rosewood]

I purchased a 4053 a couple of years back and then found a 4013 a few months back. I had/have the intention on converting one to 10mm and the 4013 is the one I would like to do.

Every few rounds, the 4013 will throw the last round from the magazine out of the gun instead of chambering it. I have tried different recoil springs to slow the slide down. I have 4 magazines, one was still in the wrapper, all have had incidents of the last round jumping out. I put a new wilson +10 spring in one and put the stiffest springs on hand in the other 2. One of the 4 mags has the vertical crimp to guide the 40, the other 3 do not.

I still have the issue happening no matter what combination I have tried with springs. Odd thing is, had a friend shoot several rounds and it never did it with him. I am pretty sure I am not limp wristing, I am pretty big and strong and have never experienced limp wristing before in all my years of shooting.

Out of 8 Gen 3 S&Ws I own, this is the first one ever to have a reliability issue. 1076, 5903, 3913, 908, 4006, 6904 have always been flawless.

Through a few hundred rounds in the 4053, I have had it do it twice, but the 4013 is the one that does it regularly. Up to the last round the 4013 is 100% flawless, it is that last round that jumps out randomly. It makes me think magazine, but it does it with all 4 of them.

I actually sent in the 4013 to the mothership before I ever shot it to have the trigger play spring replaced.

Has anyone else had this issue with a 4013 or any other model? Have you been able to fix the problem?

I just hate having a 7 round gun with a live round on the floor, especially if I add it to the EDC rotation.

One other note: the 4013 is the fat guide rod single spring, the 4053 is the nested springs.

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

@bluedot37

 

[The_Truth]

The pragmatist in me is using simple logic to assert that extra power mag springs were not necessary and are now somehow shooting the last round up out of the chamber before it even has a chance to cycle, which is really weird.

This is why I don't change any springs in semi autos myself. My main concern is reliability. I feel like as soon as you change springs around if you don't know what you're doing you've totally changed the function of the pistol and now you're working backwards trying to fix an issue that probably didn't exist with stock springs.

Have you tried switching everything back to stock springs to see if you can replicate the issue? That's step one to finding the issue. Eliminate everything you've changed one by one until you figure out which component is the culprit and then go from there.

Don't just throw new springs at it.

 

[colt_saa]

OK,
Initially, I read the beginning of your post (and thread title) as you having a problem with one magazine

Later in your post, it reads as if you are having the same thing happen with ALL magazines

If the problem is the later, this is a firearm issue and not a magazine issue

If it is the former, then I would have expected you to have just tossed the magazine and forget about it

 

[rosewood]

The pragmatist in me is using simple logic to assert that extra power mag springs were not necessary and are now somehow shooting the last round up out of the chamber before it even has a chance to cycle, which is really weird.

This is why I don't change any springs in semi autos myself. My main concern is reliability. I feel like as soon as you change springs around if you don't know what you're doing you've totally changed the function of the pistol and now you're working backwards trying to fix an issue that probably didn't exist with stock springs.

Have you tried switching everything back to stock springs to see if you can replicate the issue? That's step one to finding the issue. Eliminate everything you've changed one by one until you figure out which component is the culprit and then go from there.

Don't just throw new springs at it.

I only tried the stiffer springs after I had the issue to start with.

I have had the problem with the old springs and newer strong springs. Can't find rhyme or reason. I have tried back with the factory mag springs, factory recoil spring and all combinations of new springs and old springs.

 

[rosewood]

OK,
Initially, I read the beginning of your post (and thread title) as you having a problem with one magazine

Later in your post, it reads as if you are having the same thing happen with ALL magazines

If the problem is the later, this is a firearm issue and not a magazine issue

If it is the former, then I would have expected you to have just tossed the magazine and forget about it

The 4013 has had rounds jump out with all 4 mags. I thought it was just this gun, but then I had it happen twice with the 4053, but only twice in hundreds of rounds.

Roseweood

 

[rosewood]

I am starting to think maybe there is a design issue, was hoping someone else had run this rabbit before. Bluedot37 mentioned he had the issue in another post.

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

Thought maybe the slide was outrunning the mag. Figured a stiffer recoil spring would slow down the slide and a stiffer mag spring would let it stay ahead of the slide, but that didn't do the the trick.

Rosewood

 

[JohnHL]

Does the problem occur with all brands and types of ammo?

If it is only happening for you on two very similar pistols and none others, might it be your grip?

Not "limp wristing" but bumping the slide release with your thumb or something?

John

 

[colt_saa]

I am starting to think maybe there is a design issue, was hoping someone else had run this rabbit before. Bluedot37 mentioned he had the issue in another post.

Rosewood

I have a 1013 and a 1014 with no issues. However, I never test fired them with 40 Smith & Wesson ammunition before the conversions

The 40 Smith & Wesson ammunition would have the cartridge base sitting farther away from the back of the magazines. If this was only happeneing with a few mags, I would look at the shape of the feedlips.

Does the problem occur with all brands and types of ammo?

If it is only happening for you on two very similar pistols and none others, might it be your grip?

Not "limp wristing" but bumping the slide release with your thumb or something?

John

Silly question rosewood, since this happens Very Frequently with the one auto loader, have you allowed other shooters to fire the same firearm?

Let us make sure that something in your grip is not a contributing factor

 

[rosewood]

Yes, I mentioned it before. A friend shot several times, never did it with him. However, he didn't shoot as much as I do sometimes to get it to fail.

I am using my handloads. 165 grain about about 1050 I think.

I really have no idea if I am doing something wrong or if it is something else. Again, this only gun I have had this issue with and I shoot the 1076, 4006, 5903, 3913, 908 6904 and no issues at all.

Rosewood

 

[BLUEDOT37]

The short answer: I can't say for certain.

First, I have two 4013(R3)s. The original (A) was shot a lot as a 40S&W, before any mods, & it never had any issues with the last round popping out.

The later one (B), was only shot minimally as a 40S&W & I don't recall it having that problem too, but again it was going to be converted to a 1013.

Initially I started using (A) but changed to (B) for the conversion.

Looking back in my "Genesis" conversion thread & notes I said this:

"I did have a live round stovepipe, on the last round, twice though. Odd since I didn't have any in the 1013(A) setup with over 100 rounds fired. Not sure why exactly?
.
Been wondering why last time I had those two live round stovepipes (but not before) & then I remembered that, besides installing the XP mainspring, I had changed to the stronger dual/nested recoil spring setup (instead of the GLC-22# flat wire). I'm guessing the forward impact from that stronger spring dislodged the last round ??"

So it would seem there's potentially something different between my two 4013 but I never went back to recreate the original setup in (A). (PS:I used the same converted mag for both tests.)

Since it's not a carry pistol I never got too much into the problem. As I've stated before the conversion has it's built-in quirks anyway & my factory 4040PD has done it too.

I do agree that if you get lax on your grip (especially as a 1013) that problem will show itself &/or be worse.

If you pursue it you might check the under surface of the slide for smoothness where the top round rides against it & also the bevel of the slide's lower breach face edge where it contacts the top round of the mag.

You could try something counter-intuitive & install a lighter weight recoil spring, &/or tightening the mag lips up a tad?

Converting it to 1013 isn't likely gonna help.

.

 

[rosewood]

I have this one hemmed up. After numbering the mags, I narrowed it down to 2 of the mags that seemed to be causing most of the issues. The spacer in the back of one of the mags fell out on its own volunteering that mag for a 10mm conversion. I went ahead and converted that mag by milling out the dimples and installing a modified white follower. Just for fun, I decided to shoot 40s thru it and the gun functioned flawlessly. So, that gave me the go ahead to convert the 4013 to 10mm.

My Hypothesis, I think the lips on the mag don't grab the round good enough and it only takes a light forward slip for the round to jump out. If it is a 10mm or at least allowed to seat all the way to the back of the mag, it isn't an issue. S&W should have left the spacer out of these mags. I do not think they were needed. Other manufacturers don't put spacers in the mags for a 40 when in a 10mm length mag.

Went ahead and reamed the 4013 barrel to 10mm and converted a 2nd mag and so far, the gun has ran flawless. I have the Wolf 21 lb single spring installed. I also replace the aluminum guide rod with a stainless one.

Now the dilemma is, do I convert the 4053 to 10mm also? Or leave it as 40? Will leave as 40 for the time being.

Rosewood

 

[Erocksmash]

Right of the top the first thing I think of is maybe a recoil spring worn out... the slide coming back faster than it should could do that, but that's just speculation...

 

[colt_saa]

Now the dilemma is, do I convert the 4053 to 10mm also? Or leave it as 40? Will leave as 40 for the time being.

Rosewood

You could always move the barrel and recoil assembly over to the 4053 and see how you like it

 

[rosewood]

You could always move the barrel and recoil assembly over to the 4053 and see how you like it

I wished. Different hood size. Had they been the same, I would have converted a barrel long ago, but had to decide on which gun I was going to do.

Rosewood

 

[Erocksmash]

Numrich has different flavor barrel hoods still in stock...

 

[rosewood]

Numrich has different flavor barrel hoods still in stock...

Yeah, I know, but they are pricey..

Had they been in the $80 or so range, I would have bought one, but $170 or so is just to much "to have a spare" for me.

The parts I need, they don't have in stock. I.E. the finger groove mag bottom..

Rosewood

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Concerning the recoil springs, as I stated in another thread recently, the factory dual/nested springs measured at 21# while the factory single recoil springs are 16#.

The 21# recoil spring in your 4013/1013 actually just brings it up to matching the 4053's recoil spring & now you're shooting 10mms in it, which I assume are not 40S&W power loads.

The barrel & slide on the 4013 weighs 17oz while the barrel/slide of the 1006 & 1076 weigh 19.7oz & 19.0 oz respectively, no doubt translating into higher rearward slide speed & impact of the frame stop.

Add to that the fact that the 4013/1013 weighs 27oz empty & the 1006 weigh 42.5oz empty.

I suspect this is what jars the top round forward as the pistol is pounded rearward, & seeing it's always(?) the last round, which has less upward magazine spring pressure on it, that round gets dislodged occasionally.

Did you say you have a 4013 Wolff +10% magazine spring in it or are you using a 1006 magazine spring (with one turn cut off) in it? I'm running a 1006 Wolff +10% magazine spring.

I've got a little over (800) 10mm handloads thru my 1013 now. The top round becoming dislodged wasn't a problem in mine as a 40S&W, only as a 10mm occasionally.

Hotter loads make it worse but using slow burning powders seem to mitigate it some.

I don't know about any other .40/10mm magazines & spacers but I know 9x19 1911 magazines have spacers & their 38 Super magazines do not. I'd suspect any 1911 40S&W magazine would have a spacer too & the 10mm magazines wouldn't also.

.

 

[rosewood]

Concerning the recoil springs, as I stated in another thread recently, the factory dual/nested springs measured at 21# while the factory single recoil springs are 16#.

The 21# recoil spring in your 4013/1013 actually just brings it up to matching the 4053's recoil spring & now you're shooting 10mms in it, which I assume are not 40S&W power loads.

The barrel & slide on the 4013 weighs 17oz while the barrel/slide of the 1006 & 1076 weigh 19.7oz & 19.0 oz respectively, no doubt translating into higher rearward slide speed & impact of the frame stop.

Add to that the fact that the 4013/1013 weighs 27oz empty & the 1006 weigh 42.5oz empty.

I suspect this is what jars the top round forward as the pistol is pounded rearward, & seeing it's always(?) the last round, which has less upward magazine spring pressure on it, that round gets dislodged occasionally.

Did you say you have a 4013 Wolff +10% magazine spring in it or are you using a 1006 magazine spring (with one turn cut off) in it? I'm running a 1006 Wolff +10% magazine spring.

I've got a little over (800) 10mm handloads thru my 1013 now. The top round becoming dislodged wasn't a problem in mine as a 40S&W, only as a 10mm occasionally.

Hotter loads make it worse but using slow burning powders seem to mitigate it some.

I don't know about any other .40/10mm magazines & spacers but I know 9x19 1911 magazines have spacers & their 38 Super magazines do not. I'd suspect any 1911 40S&W magazine would have a spacer too & the 10mm magazines wouldn't also.

.

I actually ordered some 1006/1076 mag springs and was going to try one. Went in fine but was really stiff. Didn't cut a coil off. Then decided to swap the old springs from my 1076 for the new spring and try the old in the 1013. Loaded all 8 rounds just fine and didn't remove a coil.

Currently I only have 2 mags modified, but still have 4 in the 40 configuration for my 4053. Will probably go ahead and mod one more mag so I will have 3 for the 1013.

Rosewood