44/40 Frontier question....

[deadin]

Finally got around to shooting my 44/40 Frontier DA (6 inch) yesterday. I was using Winchester 225 gr. Lead Flat Nose Cowboy Action Loads. It grouped pretty well at 50 feet. but was about a foot high.
I know that slower loads will cause the POI to move up, but that much?? The front sight has also been "reshaped" but not by much. (Speaking of that, could one of you that have a matching gun with an unmolested front sight send me the height measured from the bottom of the barrel to the top of the sight?? Mine measures 1.12" Thanks in advance.)

I suppose that I should try some BP loads and see how the different recoil curve affects it.

 

[glowe]

I have a 44 Russian DA that measures 1.148". The sight measures exactly .25" above the rib. I assume the barrel diameter is the same for either .44 cartridge.

I shoot both light smokeless and BP loads without much difference in accuracy, but it is not long before I can no longer cycle the gun shooting BP loads. My DA is a consistent shooter, with normal groupings right on for elevation, but shoots left about 4".

 

[delta-419]

44-40

My frontier shoots about the same as yours, but the front sight has been a bit flatened. That is, using Hogdon Triple 7 with 220gr LRFN cast bullets.

 

[deadin]

delta,
That's interesting... Your sight profile is almost identical to mine. It doesn't look like normal wear from holstering, but I don't think it is factory either. I wonder if these are a common profile from the period.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Most of these guns tend to shoot high. My New Model Number Three shoots really high.

When I bought my 44DA some previous owner had replaced the front sight with a crude front sight that was taller than an original sight. But with that sight it shot right to point of aim at about 10 yards, so I suspect that is why the sight was changed.

So I measured the height of that sight, then had a smith replace it with an old dime set at the same height, about .315 tall. It still shoots right to point of aim, and the dime looks a lot better than the sight that came on it.

The problem is, mine is chambered for 44 Russian, not 44-40. But you may find the information useful anyway.

And yes, you should be shooting yours with Black Powder, not Smokeless, not even Cowboy loads. Mine had been shot loose, probably from Smokeless loads. But my smith was able to tighten it up again. I only put Black Powder loads through my old Top Breaks.

 

[DWalt]

The previous post about replacing the front blade is really about the only way to go if shooting a foot high bothers you.

You could also put up another target with its center a foot or so (or whatever distance is required) above your aiming target. That's what I do in such cases, as I would never do anything but paper punching occasionally with such an antique.

If you do replace the original blade, keep it somewhere where you don't forget about it, preferably in a marked envelope.

 

[deadin]

I normally don't shoot smokeless in it but I had some CAS loads and thought a few wouldn't hurt anything. (The gun is as tight as the day it left the factory.) My normal loads are FFF and they do shoot better. I just was curious about the CAS stuff. I was shooting at a B-29 target (B-27 reduced for 50 ft.) Aimed at the COM and the first 4 went right into the head.......

delta... What's your 777 load? I've avoided it as I have heard that it can cause some impressive pressure spikes if you're not careful.

 

[glowe]

Deadin, I have not tested all brands of cowboy loads, but I have used Black Hills in the past. I now reload my own. A couple of observations lead me to believe that you can duplicate BP loads with smokeless.

1. I have chronographed Black Hills, BP, plus my loads and find that the Black Hills ammo had an average velocity of 580 fps, while BP ran at 780 fps. I now load Clays powder with filler to 550 fps with 200 gr RNFP and find good results on targets. Standard non-cowboy factory loads for 44-40 have a velocity of 1310 fps in rifles according to Frank Barnes.

2. Published pressure curve research for BP and Clays in shotguns have proved that you can duplicate the pressure curves with the right loads for Clays powder. Sherman Bell set up several transducers along the length of a test barrel and transferred these readings to a pressure curve for a multitude of loads. After shooting many load combinations, Bell found out that black powder and Clays powder have an almost identical burn rate.

I think that pushing BP loads at almost 800 fps has to generate higher pressures than smokeless at 550 fps. It is a sure thing that most of these old guns have been shot with countless "hot" factory loads for years before they approached antique status. I am sure many rifle rounds have gone through these same revolvers - no wonder some are loose. With a chrongraph, you can work your way up to a accurate mild load that is far less punishing than a full load of BP.

This is, of course blasphemy to some, but proper research is much more convincing than tall tales. Besides, I doubt that anyone puts many bullets downrange with these old DAs. It is just great fun to get them out of the gun safe once and awhile to impress your friends. Don’t even get me started on Damascus barrels . . .

 

[DWalt]

I've seen a lot of uninformed hogwash in postings here about how smokeless powder loads have more of an alleged "Pressure Peak Shock" vs. black powder and is dangerous to shoot in those revolvers of the black powder era. None of them have provided a grain of evidence that this is true. Actually the only reliable proof is comparative piezo pressure curves, and this is the first indication I have seen that at least some such data exists, and I would like to see more.

Back in the earliest days of smokeless powder, before the technology was fully developed, there may have been some cause for concern over the use of other than BP loads, but that hasn't been the case for a great many years.

My feeling that firing factory-level normal smokeless CF revolver loads in the old calibers do no harm in the old guns is reinforced by the lack of any warnings from any ammunition manufacturer that this practice is dangerous, and also because I have fired thousands of mild smokeless loads in old BP revolvers for years with no adverse effect.

I would like to see someone post hard evidence (not suppositions or guesswork or BS) proving that smokeless loads having MVs which do not exceed MVs of the old BP loads are not perfectly safe and satisfactory in old revolvers of shootable condition.

 

[glowe]

The only thing I have now is a copy of an article titled "Finding Out for Myself, Part VI" as published in the Double Gun Journal, Summer 2002. In the past, I have been able to obtain specific back issues from DGJ by checking their website as to availability. They might be able to copy an article as well. I hesitate to post this article, since I am sure that I would be violating some copyright laws and Forum rules.

Sherman Bell has done a dozen or more articles on various old cautions about one subject or another as seen over the years. He has tried to blow up wall hanger Damascus barrels with Nitro proof loads, he has plugged barrels and shot them, etc. All were very informative.

I just checked the website and that back issue is available for $15.

 

[delta-419]

Triple Seven Loads

Deadin, I load T7 the same way I load BP, by volume not by weight. I have shot several pounds of the stuff and have never had a flat primer or any indication of pressure issues. I fire it in my two 45-70 Trapdoors, a whole range of topbreaks from the 1880s (.32 & .38 S&W) and a couple of Remington Rollingblocks. It does require cleanup with soap and hot water after a day at the range, however a good waterhoseing cleans up realy fast if you are looking to neutraize the chemicals. Works for me.

 

[delta-419]

T7

Note: Be sure and read the lable on the jar as the FFF and FFFF grains one is for cartridges and one is for muzzel loaders and I forget which. I check everytime I reload as I have both.