Just bought a Ruger 77/44 and wondering what your experiences might be loading for rifle length barrels with 44 Magnum.
thanks,
thanks,
44 Magnum in a rifle
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4barrel
Member
I like 296 & a good 240 hp in my Marlin lever & Remington 788 bolt. A Winchester Silvertip is hard to beat for a factory load. I like 2400 for lead loads & a hard flat base bullet for slower loads. Lots of good powder & load combos for a 44 mag out there. Bench a factory bullet at 100 yards & you should be able to come up with a load. I am looking forward for others thoughts. I also shoot a Freedom Arms open sights & a S&W 29-2 scoped.
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DocB
Member
You're going to get so much added velocity out of factory loads with that longer rifle barrel, I would just load the same loads you like to use in your handguns. I have an old Ruger semi-auto 44 magnum that I bought in 1972. It makes shooting any 44 magnum load just like shooting a 22 rim fire. . .a very pleasant gun to hunt with.
I don't remember the load, buy my Marlin hated the heavier bullets. 300 grain would keyhole at 50 yards. Rifled fired 44 mag is an awesome, awesome cartridge.
MichiganScott
Member
My rifle loads are actually downloaded a bit from my pistol loads. They seem to group better, but still chronograph at over 1600 fps.
WW-296 or H110 is hard to beat.
WW-296 or H110 is hard to beat.
Collo Rosso
Member
With proper sized bullets (my Marlin has a .432 bore) and a stout load of 2400 my lever gun shot a clover leaf at 50 yards. #9 works good too and I have had no leading beyond what a bronze brush will clean up. Knocks the $*!@ out of steel plates at 100 yards! Down loaded some rounds with HS-6 and my daughter wouldn't give the rifle back. Sorry I waited so long to own one.
Same loads for my pistol and 44 mag rifle using Win 296, 240 gr. Hornady XTP's, CCI 350 magnum primers, in RP and Win cases. Don't reduce charges with H110/Win 296 more than 10% of maximum. I like 23 grains of Win 296 which is about 1 grain less than max. Shoots well in both rifle and pistol. Check all your data sources.
OP
Great so far. I have WW-296 and 2400 in inventory and usually shoot 240 gr Keith SWC in lead and have some 180 and 240 gr XTP's and 240 gr JHP to play with so far.
Snapping Twig
Member
110/296 are perfect for this, as is proper bullet size.
Mine is a Marlin lever and it uses .431 bullets.
That said, the extra length of the barrel exploits the slow powder and gives you up to 500fps additional velocity.
Not much you can't hunt with that.
Your range is limited due to bullet shape, but I'd say up to 200 yards is an effective range.
Mine is a Marlin lever and it uses .431 bullets.
That said, the extra length of the barrel exploits the slow powder and gives you up to 500fps additional velocity.
Not much you can't hunt with that.
Your range is limited due to bullet shape, but I'd say up to 200 yards is an effective range.
My 20" Puma shoots only lead bullets; 240 gr. LRNFP, and 265 gr. LRNFP of Ranch Dog design. I have never particularly cared for H110/W296 and use Unique, 2400 and Blue Dot for most of my loads. WC820 for my "heavier" loads. The only difference between .44 Mag. handguns and rifles is SAAMI specs.; .429" groove dia. for handguns, and .431" groove diameter for rifle barrels. I size my lead bullets to .432"-.433" for my carbine...
BTW, with mid level loads of Blue Dot under a 240 gr. lead bullet I get 2"-2 1/4" groups at 45-50 yards (which is pretty good for this old guy's eyes!).
BTW, with mid level loads of Blue Dot under a 240 gr. lead bullet I get 2"-2 1/4" groups at 45-50 yards (which is pretty good for this old guy's eyes!).
OP
Anyone happen to have slugged a barrel on a 77/44?
Arub
Member
I run 18.5 grains behind a 240 grain jacketed for about 1600 ft/sec and 22.0 grains behind a 180 grain jacketed for about 1900 ft/sec. Have run 7.3 grains of Green Dot behind a 240 hard cast swc for about 1160 ft/sec.
Nemo288
Member
Start with whatever magnum load shoots well in your handgun(s).
Do NOT load any hotter for the rifle.
As some have mentioned, a slight download may help.
I have several 44 rifles and the 44 magnum carbines all shoot minute of whitetail with the standard 24 gr. 110/296 with a 240 JHC.
I also use 18-19 gr. 2400 and a 260 WFNGC (Cast Performance) which is my Redhawk's favorite meal.
If your gun will shoot them well, cast bullets may be your best bet for top terminal performance at the 1600-1750 fps you will achieve.
Lapping your barrel will help with this.
444 owners found this out quite awhile ago because there are only a few mainstream jacketed 44 bullets that work well @ Mach 2.
Welcome to the last 2 centuries.
Pix not to scale.
Top is a 16" W94 with un-cataloged factory laminate
Bottom is a 20" B92 with custom walnut
Do NOT load any hotter for the rifle.
As some have mentioned, a slight download may help.
I have several 44 rifles and the 44 magnum carbines all shoot minute of whitetail with the standard 24 gr. 110/296 with a 240 JHC.
I also use 18-19 gr. 2400 and a 260 WFNGC (Cast Performance) which is my Redhawk's favorite meal.
If your gun will shoot them well, cast bullets may be your best bet for top terminal performance at the 1600-1750 fps you will achieve.
Lapping your barrel will help with this.
444 owners found this out quite awhile ago because there are only a few mainstream jacketed 44 bullets that work well @ Mach 2.
Welcome to the last 2 centuries.
Pix not to scale.
Top is a 16" W94 with un-cataloged factory laminate
Bottom is a 20" B92 with custom walnut
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gmiller0737
Member
I own a Ruger Carbine I have had good Luck with The Hornady 240gr JHP & 20.5gr 2400
Marlin 4 Mags don't like heavy bullet loads because they use a slow twist rate that can't stabilize 300 grain+ bullets.
If you want to shoot the heavy bullet loads with accuracy, you'll need a
1:20 twist barrel.
Of course, a hard cast or heat treated 240-250 grain delivers a lot killing power.
If you want to shoot the heavy bullet loads with accuracy, you'll need a
1:20 twist barrel.
Of course, a hard cast or heat treated 240-250 grain delivers a lot killing power.
Nemo288
Member
That is a common misconception that is completely false.
Check out the Marlin owners 444 sub-forum and the Beartooth Bullets articles on the 444.
The trick is to use WFN bullets that are short for their weight and drive em as fast as possible keeping a safe pressure.
Beartooth Bullets > Tech Notes > .444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part III
Bullets as heavy as 355 grains have been shot into 1" 100 yard groups using the 444S.
Longer than that and the 444P or other 1/20" do stabilize better.
I am having a 1/25 twist being made for the Encore to play with these.
I am currently shooting 280, 290, and 300 grain bullets in 2 different 1/38 guns successfully.
The Hornady 300 XTP also shoots well in the 444S according to many shooters.
No one really knows who started this rumor (a long time ago) but they obviously used cast bullets that were too small.
There weren't any heavy jacketed 44 bullets at the time.
It's been repeated by every gun writer that obviously never shot a 444 (most of them).
The 444 likes cast bullets .432 or .433 or you will get poor results.
The 444 has been misunderstood ever since it was introduced using a 240 grain Remington FP.
This is still fantastic deer medicine and the round really hit it's stride with the addition of the Hornady 265 FP which was designed for the 444.
The current Superformance factory ammo using the 265 is excellent and really can't be topped by the handloader (with that bullet).
They are now driving the 265 100 fps faster than Rem drove the old 240.
I know my shoulder could not take much more anyway.
Here are a couple of 40 yard targets I just shot with my 1980 444S
The first is using a bullet they say WILL NOT stabilize as it is over an inch long and the box says 1/20 only.
The second is my first load using a 280 out of the gate no development ladder yet.
The fact is just about any bullet shorter than .9" will shoot in a 1/38 given enough velocity.
Weight helps stabilize, it's the length you eventually run up against.
Check out the Miller stability formulae and play around with em.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_twist_rule
Turns out the plastic tip does not really count towards the length when computing stability.
Miller has yet to include this but JBM does
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Check out the Marlin owners 444 sub-forum and the Beartooth Bullets articles on the 444.
The trick is to use WFN bullets that are short for their weight and drive em as fast as possible keeping a safe pressure.
Beartooth Bullets > Tech Notes > .444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part III
Bullets as heavy as 355 grains have been shot into 1" 100 yard groups using the 444S.
Longer than that and the 444P or other 1/20" do stabilize better.
I am having a 1/25 twist being made for the Encore to play with these.
I am currently shooting 280, 290, and 300 grain bullets in 2 different 1/38 guns successfully.
The Hornady 300 XTP also shoots well in the 444S according to many shooters.
No one really knows who started this rumor (a long time ago) but they obviously used cast bullets that were too small.
There weren't any heavy jacketed 44 bullets at the time.
It's been repeated by every gun writer that obviously never shot a 444 (most of them).
The 444 likes cast bullets .432 or .433 or you will get poor results.
The 444 has been misunderstood ever since it was introduced using a 240 grain Remington FP.
This is still fantastic deer medicine and the round really hit it's stride with the addition of the Hornady 265 FP which was designed for the 444.
The current Superformance factory ammo using the 265 is excellent and really can't be topped by the handloader (with that bullet).
They are now driving the 265 100 fps faster than Rem drove the old 240.
I know my shoulder could not take much more anyway.
Here are a couple of 40 yard targets I just shot with my 1980 444S
The first is using a bullet they say WILL NOT stabilize as it is over an inch long and the box says 1/20 only.
The second is my first load using a 280 out of the gate no development ladder yet.
The fact is just about any bullet shorter than .9" will shoot in a 1/38 given enough velocity.
Weight helps stabilize, it's the length you eventually run up against.
Check out the Miller stability formulae and play around with em.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_twist_rule
Turns out the plastic tip does not really count towards the length when computing stability.
Miller has yet to include this but JBM does
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
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I load 44 magnum for deer hunting with a rifle so I stick to full power
loads with jacketed bullets. Most of the loading has been for my
Ruger #3 single shot and I use the same loads as I do for my Ruger
Super Blackhawk or Redhawk. I also have a Ruger 77/44 and have
fired a few rounds through it but not very many. These are strong
rifles, especially the #3 and I see no reason to load down for them.
Lever actions have rear locking bolts and do have some spring when
fired which results in stretched cases. They should not be considered
stronger than revolvers. For bullets heavier than 250 grs a faster
twist barrel is needed which the 77/44 has but the #3 and most
lever actions do not. A close shot on a deer with a 240 gr JHP at
1800 fps from a full power load may not hold together for full
penetration so a soft point might be a better choice. I use 24.0-25.0
grs of 296 for 240-250 gr bullets.
loads with jacketed bullets. Most of the loading has been for my
Ruger #3 single shot and I use the same loads as I do for my Ruger
Super Blackhawk or Redhawk. I also have a Ruger 77/44 and have
fired a few rounds through it but not very many. These are strong
rifles, especially the #3 and I see no reason to load down for them.
Lever actions have rear locking bolts and do have some spring when
fired which results in stretched cases. They should not be considered
stronger than revolvers. For bullets heavier than 250 grs a faster
twist barrel is needed which the 77/44 has but the #3 and most
lever actions do not. A close shot on a deer with a 240 gr JHP at
1800 fps from a full power load may not hold together for full
penetration so a soft point might be a better choice. I use 24.0-25.0
grs of 296 for 240-250 gr bullets.
44mg Rifle
I'm very interested in Rifle loads myself. I have loaded 240 JHPs
for 50 yrs. These were for deer hunting. Gun used was Ruger
SBH. Loaded 240/ 22.5 gr 2400. I shot these loads out of a
#3, 788, Mar 94, Deer Stalker. Out of these rifles I only used
Deer Stalker once deer hunting. Plinked with others, the 788
was scoped and shot very well at 60yds. I just got another old
Marlin 94 recently. I have been wondering about 180 or 200 gr
bullets to flatten the rainbow. I have no experience with these
lighter bullets. I what to get load wringed out before deer season.
Ohio got limited rifle season last year, had to drag a 45/70, only
legal rifle I had on hand. The little Marlin is a lot nicer to carry.
One thing I do know, there is going to be a Lyman reciever sight
no scope.
I'm very interested in Rifle loads myself. I have loaded 240 JHPs
for 50 yrs. These were for deer hunting. Gun used was Ruger
SBH. Loaded 240/ 22.5 gr 2400. I shot these loads out of a
#3, 788, Mar 94, Deer Stalker. Out of these rifles I only used
Deer Stalker once deer hunting. Plinked with others, the 788
was scoped and shot very well at 60yds. I just got another old
Marlin 94 recently. I have been wondering about 180 or 200 gr
bullets to flatten the rainbow. I have no experience with these
lighter bullets. I what to get load wringed out before deer season.
Ohio got limited rifle season last year, had to drag a 45/70, only
legal rifle I had on hand. The little Marlin is a lot nicer to carry.
One thing I do know, there is going to be a Lyman reciever sight
no scope.
MichiganScott
Member
The older Ruger Deer Slayer had a 1-38 twist. Mine shoots 240gr bullets adequately, but I find 200gr or 210gr bullets have an accuracy advantage. Newer Rugers have a 1-20 twist.
I've never owned a Marlin, but I understand they also changed the twist in their barrels over the years.
I've never owned a Marlin, but I understand they also changed the twist in their barrels over the years.
4barrel
Member
You can set a spotting scope up behind the shooter a little right or left on a sunny day and you can tell where a 44 jacketed bullet is going to hit before it gets to 200 yards or more. They really rainbow.
Have had a few 44 rifles from the Ruger carbine in the 60s next the 788 which is still very accurate and various Marlins and a 24 in Winchester which, regrettably I sold. Have always used 22/2400 with various 240 gr jacketed. Shot well out of the handguns and rifles. Ruger carbine didn't like lead bullets and most rifles don't shoot them as well either...especially heavies. Never really matched bore size and bullets Have 2 here now. One is going to my granddaughter in Sept. Both sport Lyman Peeps and shoot pretty well. I have a bunch of 245 gr swaged flatpoint jacketed that shoot really well. But I sold the swaging dies after making about a thousand. Kind of a pain making them anyway. Oh velocities were slightly slower out of the 24 inch bbld Winchester than from 20 inch bbld Marlins. The 44 is really only about a hundred yard caliber anyway as oit runs outta steam pretty quickly....but inside that number it is a pretty efficient caliber.
The Marins I have now do have a faster twist, significantly so...but don't know what it is. Maybe they will shoot heavier bullets
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Nemo288
Member
Fast twist 44 rifles usually have a 1/20" twist.
Instead of actually optimizing for the speed and length of the bullet range that could be useful
they just went with the already available barrels made for the revolver crowd.
There are a few 1/18" twist 44 barrels out there but they are relatively rare.
In a 444, 1/25" would stabilize even a 400 grain bullet.
It would destabilize my shoulder I think.
There are 2 schools of though on this.
1 says that you should just stabilize your longest bullet for maximum accuracy.
2 says that you cannot over stabilize a bullet.
Ask S&W how much trouble they had with shearing the grooves in the (copper!) bullets when they were developing the 460 magnum.
This problem forced them to go to a gain twist to ease the bullet into full rotation.
Now imagine shooting a cast bullet with too fast a twist.
Same problem.
These bullets (in your 1/20 carbine) can be rotating over 1000 RPS. Yeah 1k rev per SECOND.
Varmint rifles: much faster. They are the ones who have seen bullets disintegrate in mid air
Most engineering is a matter of trade offs and this is a good example.
Another reason cast bullet sometime don't shoot well in these carbines is they usually have rough as a corn cob bores.
Like revolvers you have to slug the bore and fit the bullets.
Lapping by fire or by hand helps tremendously.
I have always been a little leery of lapping the micro-groove barrels as there isn't much rifling there to start with.
Having said that I probably will lightly lap my 444 double rifle because it is shaving copper off the bullets like crazy.
(It's a 1/38").
Instead of actually optimizing for the speed and length of the bullet range that could be useful
they just went with the already available barrels made for the revolver crowd.
There are a few 1/18" twist 44 barrels out there but they are relatively rare.
In a 444, 1/25" would stabilize even a 400 grain bullet.
It would destabilize my shoulder I think.
There are 2 schools of though on this.
1 says that you should just stabilize your longest bullet for maximum accuracy.
2 says that you cannot over stabilize a bullet.
Ask S&W how much trouble they had with shearing the grooves in the (copper!) bullets when they were developing the 460 magnum.
This problem forced them to go to a gain twist to ease the bullet into full rotation.
Now imagine shooting a cast bullet with too fast a twist.
Same problem.
These bullets (in your 1/20 carbine) can be rotating over 1000 RPS. Yeah 1k rev per SECOND.
Varmint rifles: much faster. They are the ones who have seen bullets disintegrate in mid air
Most engineering is a matter of trade offs and this is a good example.
Another reason cast bullet sometime don't shoot well in these carbines is they usually have rough as a corn cob bores.
Like revolvers you have to slug the bore and fit the bullets.
Lapping by fire or by hand helps tremendously.
I have always been a little leery of lapping the micro-groove barrels as there isn't much rifling there to start with.
Having said that I probably will lightly lap my 444 double rifle because it is shaving copper off the bullets like crazy.
(It's a 1/38").
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OP
Nemo228, seems your statement of "Like revolvers you have to slug the bore and fit the bullets." goes against conventional revolver wisdom of measure the cylinder throat and size accordingly. Any idea?
thanks,
thanks,
Nemo288
Member
Thanks for mentioning that.
Theoretically you should slug both.
That way you will know if the chamber throat is smaller than the bore.
This would be something you would want to correct.
Most folks do as you suggest as it's way easier and works almost every time.
Include me in that group (so far).
Theoretically you should slug both.
That way you will know if the chamber throat is smaller than the bore.
This would be something you would want to correct.
Most folks do as you suggest as it's way easier and works almost every time.
Include me in that group (so far).
Ruger 44 mg carbine
The old Ruger Deer Stalker was not suppose to fire Lead bullets.
I don't own one right now but have owned several over the years.
The lead bullets would clog gas port. The last couple I bought
I got good deal on because they were plugged up.
The old Ruger Deer Stalker was not suppose to fire Lead bullets.
I don't own one right now but have owned several over the years.
The lead bullets would clog gas port. The last couple I bought
I got good deal on because they were plugged up.
I think that at rifle velocities the lightweight bullets you mention
would very likely give poor performance on deer. Probably shed jackets
and not hold together for good penetration. 240 gr bullets shoot
plenty flat enough for 100 yd shots on deer sized game and that's
about as far as you should be shooting with an iron sighted carbine.
The short light bullets will lose velocity and energy much faster than
240s and the "rainbow" won't be much different at 100 yds. The
longest shot I have made with my Ruger #3 was about exactly 100 yds
and only because the deer was standing out in the open. Most shots
in the woods have been much closer.
would very likely give poor performance on deer. Probably shed jackets
and not hold together for good penetration. 240 gr bullets shoot
plenty flat enough for 100 yd shots on deer sized game and that's
about as far as you should be shooting with an iron sighted carbine.
The short light bullets will lose velocity and energy much faster than
240s and the "rainbow" won't be much different at 100 yds. The
longest shot I have made with my Ruger #3 was about exactly 100 yds
and only because the deer was standing out in the open. Most shots
in the woods have been much closer.
Done some messing around with revolver and rifle loads in .44 mag.
Have a 629 8 3/8", a Ruger M44 18" and a fair supply of VV N-110.
Load data is all over place for N110 so I have been slowly working through a series of loads. Not interested in stressing the guns out so just some velocity experiments with loads that stop short of max.
300g XTP started at 15.5g N-110
629 - 1126fps
M44 - 1249fps
Stopped at 16.4g N-110
629 - 1171fps
M44 - 1296fps
Not getting much from the longer barrel or increase in charge so at the limit of what the powder/bullet combo can do.
240g XTP start 20.5g N-110
629 - 1265fps
M44 - 1630fps
Gets more interesting with this combo. The Ruger soft cycled the load and the VV manual has a max of 22.1g
Next outing I will try 21g
180g XTP start 24.6g
629 - 1465fps
M44 - 1959fps
Now we're having fun. The Ruger did not cycle this load at all and the 629 showed no signs of pressure. VV manual has a max of 27.1
and Hornady has 26.2g
Think I can easily move towards 25.5g and 2000fps + next time out.
As a point of reference I clocked some Remington 180g JHP about a year ago out of the 629 - 1637fps pretty impressive number.
Have fun with your 77/44 been keeping an eye out for a reasonable priced one myself.
.41 cal
Have a 629 8 3/8", a Ruger M44 18" and a fair supply of VV N-110.
Load data is all over place for N110 so I have been slowly working through a series of loads. Not interested in stressing the guns out so just some velocity experiments with loads that stop short of max.
300g XTP started at 15.5g N-110
629 - 1126fps
M44 - 1249fps
Stopped at 16.4g N-110
629 - 1171fps
M44 - 1296fps
Not getting much from the longer barrel or increase in charge so at the limit of what the powder/bullet combo can do.
240g XTP start 20.5g N-110
629 - 1265fps
M44 - 1630fps
Gets more interesting with this combo. The Ruger soft cycled the load and the VV manual has a max of 22.1g
Next outing I will try 21g
180g XTP start 24.6g
629 - 1465fps
M44 - 1959fps
Now we're having fun. The Ruger did not cycle this load at all and the 629 showed no signs of pressure. VV manual has a max of 27.1
and Hornady has 26.2gThink I can easily move towards 25.5g and 2000fps + next time out.
As a point of reference I clocked some Remington 180g JHP about a year ago out of the 629 - 1637fps pretty impressive number.
Have fun with your 77/44 been keeping an eye out for a reasonable priced one myself.
.41 cal
OP
.41cal, thanks and I'm looking forward to it also. Have a nice Zeiss scope to plop on top. I also load for this puppy. A 629-3 Classic that I had cut down to 4.5".
Nemo288
Member
Years ago, when I was shooting 44 carbines more than I do now,
I chrono'd them (original ProChrono):
The load:
24 grains W296
240 grain Sierra JHC
Fed nickel brass, WLP primer
6" 629 (90°F) 1347 fps s=21
7.5" Redhawk 1463 fps s=34 1483 fps s=12.3 (80°F)
16" 94AE ......1697 fps s=16.5
20" 94AE ......1740 fps s=7
20" B92 ........1775 fps s=12.7
These were more than likely 5 or 6 shot groups so the s value means very little.
I chrono'd them (original ProChrono):
The load:
24 grains W296
240 grain Sierra JHC
Fed nickel brass, WLP primer
6" 629 (90°F) 1347 fps s=21
7.5" Redhawk 1463 fps s=34 1483 fps s=12.3 (80°F)
16" 94AE ......1697 fps s=16.5
20" 94AE ......1740 fps s=7
20" B92 ........1775 fps s=12.7
These were more than likely 5 or 6 shot groups so the s value means very little.
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Ruger Redhawk 5.5" 44 Magnum Blued Napa California
