Have had a few 44 rifles from the Ruger carbine in the 60s next the 788 which is still very accurate and various Marlins and a 24 in Winchester which, regrettably I sold. Have always used 22/2400 with various 240 gr jacketed. Shot well out of the handguns and rifles. Ruger carbine didn't like lead bullets and most rifles don't shoot them as well either...especially heavies. Never really matched bore size and bullets Have 2 here now. One is going to my granddaughter in Sept. Both sport Lyman Peeps and shoot pretty well. I have a bunch of 245 gr swaged flatpoint jacketed that shoot really well. But I sold the swaging dies after making about a thousand. Kind of a pain making them anyway. Oh velocities were slightly slower out of the 24 inch bbld Winchester than from 20 inch bbld Marlins. The 44 is really only about a hundred yard caliber anyway as oit runs outta steam pretty quickly....but inside that number it is a pretty efficient caliber.
44 Magnum in a rifle
- Thread starter stu1ritter
- Start date
The Marins I have now do have a faster twist, significantly so...but don't know what it is. Maybe they will shoot heavier bullets
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Nemo288
Member
Fast twist 44 rifles usually have a 1/20" twist.
Instead of actually optimizing for the speed and length of the bullet range that could be useful
they just went with the already available barrels made for the revolver crowd.
There are a few 1/18" twist 44 barrels out there but they are relatively rare.
In a 444, 1/25" would stabilize even a 400 grain bullet.
It would destabilize my shoulder I think.
There are 2 schools of though on this.
1 says that you should just stabilize your longest bullet for maximum accuracy.
2 says that you cannot over stabilize a bullet.
Ask S&W how much trouble they had with shearing the grooves in the (copper!) bullets when they were developing the 460 magnum.
This problem forced them to go to a gain twist to ease the bullet into full rotation.
Now imagine shooting a cast bullet with too fast a twist.
Same problem.
These bullets (in your 1/20 carbine) can be rotating over 1000 RPS. Yeah 1k rev per SECOND.
Varmint rifles: much faster. They are the ones who have seen bullets disintegrate in mid air
Most engineering is a matter of trade offs and this is a good example.
Another reason cast bullet sometime don't shoot well in these carbines is they usually have rough as a corn cob bores.
Like revolvers you have to slug the bore and fit the bullets.
Lapping by fire or by hand helps tremendously.
I have always been a little leery of lapping the micro-groove barrels as there isn't much rifling there to start with.
Having said that I probably will lightly lap my 444 double rifle because it is shaving copper off the bullets like crazy.
(It's a 1/38").
Instead of actually optimizing for the speed and length of the bullet range that could be useful
they just went with the already available barrels made for the revolver crowd.
There are a few 1/18" twist 44 barrels out there but they are relatively rare.
In a 444, 1/25" would stabilize even a 400 grain bullet.
It would destabilize my shoulder I think.
There are 2 schools of though on this.
1 says that you should just stabilize your longest bullet for maximum accuracy.
2 says that you cannot over stabilize a bullet.
Ask S&W how much trouble they had with shearing the grooves in the (copper!) bullets when they were developing the 460 magnum.
This problem forced them to go to a gain twist to ease the bullet into full rotation.
Now imagine shooting a cast bullet with too fast a twist.
Same problem.
These bullets (in your 1/20 carbine) can be rotating over 1000 RPS. Yeah 1k rev per SECOND.
Varmint rifles: much faster. They are the ones who have seen bullets disintegrate in mid air
Most engineering is a matter of trade offs and this is a good example.
Another reason cast bullet sometime don't shoot well in these carbines is they usually have rough as a corn cob bores.
Like revolvers you have to slug the bore and fit the bullets.
Lapping by fire or by hand helps tremendously.
I have always been a little leery of lapping the micro-groove barrels as there isn't much rifling there to start with.
Having said that I probably will lightly lap my 444 double rifle because it is shaving copper off the bullets like crazy.
(It's a 1/38").
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OP
Nemo228, seems your statement of "Like revolvers you have to slug the bore and fit the bullets." goes against conventional revolver wisdom of measure the cylinder throat and size accordingly. Any idea?
thanks,
thanks,
Nemo288
Member
Thanks for mentioning that.
Theoretically you should slug both.
That way you will know if the chamber throat is smaller than the bore.
This would be something you would want to correct.
Most folks do as you suggest as it's way easier and works almost every time.
Include me in that group (so far).
Theoretically you should slug both.
That way you will know if the chamber throat is smaller than the bore.
This would be something you would want to correct.
Most folks do as you suggest as it's way easier and works almost every time.
Include me in that group (so far).
Ruger 44 mg carbine
The old Ruger Deer Stalker was not suppose to fire Lead bullets.
I don't own one right now but have owned several over the years.
The lead bullets would clog gas port. The last couple I bought
I got good deal on because they were plugged up.
The old Ruger Deer Stalker was not suppose to fire Lead bullets.
I don't own one right now but have owned several over the years.
The lead bullets would clog gas port. The last couple I bought
I got good deal on because they were plugged up.
I think that at rifle velocities the lightweight bullets you mention
would very likely give poor performance on deer. Probably shed jackets
and not hold together for good penetration. 240 gr bullets shoot
plenty flat enough for 100 yd shots on deer sized game and that's
about as far as you should be shooting with an iron sighted carbine.
The short light bullets will lose velocity and energy much faster than
240s and the "rainbow" won't be much different at 100 yds. The
longest shot I have made with my Ruger #3 was about exactly 100 yds
and only because the deer was standing out in the open. Most shots
in the woods have been much closer.
would very likely give poor performance on deer. Probably shed jackets
and not hold together for good penetration. 240 gr bullets shoot
plenty flat enough for 100 yd shots on deer sized game and that's
about as far as you should be shooting with an iron sighted carbine.
The short light bullets will lose velocity and energy much faster than
240s and the "rainbow" won't be much different at 100 yds. The
longest shot I have made with my Ruger #3 was about exactly 100 yds
and only because the deer was standing out in the open. Most shots
in the woods have been much closer.
Done some messing around with revolver and rifle loads in .44 mag.
Have a 629 8 3/8", a Ruger M44 18" and a fair supply of VV N-110.
Load data is all over place for N110 so I have been slowly working through a series of loads. Not interested in stressing the guns out so just some velocity experiments with loads that stop short of max.
300g XTP started at 15.5g N-110
629 - 1126fps
M44 - 1249fps
Stopped at 16.4g N-110
629 - 1171fps
M44 - 1296fps
Not getting much from the longer barrel or increase in charge so at the limit of what the powder/bullet combo can do.
240g XTP start 20.5g N-110
629 - 1265fps
M44 - 1630fps
Gets more interesting with this combo. The Ruger soft cycled the load and the VV manual has a max of 22.1g
Next outing I will try 21g
180g XTP start 24.6g
629 - 1465fps
M44 - 1959fps
Now we're having fun. The Ruger did not cycle this load at all and the 629 showed no signs of pressure. VV manual has a max of 27.1
and Hornady has 26.2g
Think I can easily move towards 25.5g and 2000fps + next time out.
As a point of reference I clocked some Remington 180g JHP about a year ago out of the 629 - 1637fps pretty impressive number.
Have fun with your 77/44 been keeping an eye out for a reasonable priced one myself.
.41 cal
Have a 629 8 3/8", a Ruger M44 18" and a fair supply of VV N-110.
Load data is all over place for N110 so I have been slowly working through a series of loads. Not interested in stressing the guns out so just some velocity experiments with loads that stop short of max.
300g XTP started at 15.5g N-110
629 - 1126fps
M44 - 1249fps
Stopped at 16.4g N-110
629 - 1171fps
M44 - 1296fps
Not getting much from the longer barrel or increase in charge so at the limit of what the powder/bullet combo can do.
240g XTP start 20.5g N-110
629 - 1265fps
M44 - 1630fps
Gets more interesting with this combo. The Ruger soft cycled the load and the VV manual has a max of 22.1g
Next outing I will try 21g
180g XTP start 24.6g
629 - 1465fps
M44 - 1959fps
Now we're having fun. The Ruger did not cycle this load at all and the 629 showed no signs of pressure. VV manual has a max of 27.1
and Hornady has 26.2gThink I can easily move towards 25.5g and 2000fps + next time out.
As a point of reference I clocked some Remington 180g JHP about a year ago out of the 629 - 1637fps pretty impressive number.
Have fun with your 77/44 been keeping an eye out for a reasonable priced one myself.
.41 cal
OP
.41cal, thanks and I'm looking forward to it also. Have a nice Zeiss scope to plop on top. I also load for this puppy. A 629-3 Classic that I had cut down to 4.5".
Nemo288
Member
Years ago, when I was shooting 44 carbines more than I do now,
I chrono'd them (original ProChrono):
The load:
24 grains W296
240 grain Sierra JHC
Fed nickel brass, WLP primer
6" 629 (90°F) 1347 fps s=21
7.5" Redhawk 1463 fps s=34 1483 fps s=12.3 (80°F)
16" 94AE ......1697 fps s=16.5
20" 94AE ......1740 fps s=7
20" B92 ........1775 fps s=12.7
These were more than likely 5 or 6 shot groups so the s value means very little.
I chrono'd them (original ProChrono):
The load:
24 grains W296
240 grain Sierra JHC
Fed nickel brass, WLP primer
6" 629 (90°F) 1347 fps s=21
7.5" Redhawk 1463 fps s=34 1483 fps s=12.3 (80°F)
16" 94AE ......1697 fps s=16.5
20" 94AE ......1740 fps s=7
20" B92 ........1775 fps s=12.7
These were more than likely 5 or 6 shot groups so the s value means very little.
4barrel
Member
I like 2400 but when you load 296 & 2400 To the max-296 kicks a little less to me. Marin-788 Remington-29-2 S&W-Freedom Arms pistol. I do have the equipment to test the fps. My small group tries to beat the best score we recorded.
buck460XVR
Member
I also have a 77/44 along with lever .44 carbines. The Lil' Ruger seems to prefer jacketed bullets and near max loads when it come to accuracy. My favorite load for it is either a Nosler or a Hornady 240 grainer over a slightly compressed load of IMR4227. What made a bigger impact on it's accuracy than the powder/bullet I used, was having a trigger job done on it. The factory trigger was horrendously heavy and rough. A local smith got it down to under 4.5 pounds and smooth as butter. There also are DIY trigger kits out there.
OP
I only shot it with lead yesterday and only at 25 yards, but it was printing 5 shot groups in one hole. Those were +P level 44 Special loads. I'll be taking it out to 100 yards this week. Also just found 2 bottles of 4227 locally. The trigger is a really simple design and I'm going to start playing with that today. I have to have a good trigger on my guns. The factory trigger is awful.
I haven't shot my 77/44 a ton, and I shoot offhand so any accuracy significance beyond that would be unnoticed by me. But I was definitely impressed when 200gr XTP's over 29.4 grains of 300-MP went just over 2100 fps out of the muzzle. It was like 5 ft-lbs shy of 2000 ft-lbs of energy. Who knows how that would hold together on game or whatever, but it blows the heck out of milk jugs and the like. And that's half a grain below the max in Hornady's #9.
OP
So far, testing at 100 yards has shown that jacketed, near maximum gives the smallest groups. I believe several folks had noted that. So far 240 gr Hornady JHP in front of 11.3 of Auto Comp (near max) has yielded the smallest groups, around 2". Ruger says these puppies don't like lead but I'm going to load up some 240 LSWC that I have which are around BHN 20 and will take the pressure of the max Auto Comp load of 11.6 gr. I haven't tried 2400 yet, probably this week.
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Ruger Redhawk 5.5" 44 Magnum Blued Napa California
