.44 Magnum Winchester silvertip 210 JHP for black bear defense?

[oink]

A partially rural southern FL Dept. Initially and for most of my career there they did not issue a firearm. When I started the rules were that you could carry any wheel gun of 38 special or larger that you could qualify with and any of the major brands of firearms. Rossi, Taurus, etc not permitted. If you wanted to carry magnums, 38 or 44, you had to qualify with them first attempt, otherwise you had to qualify with 38 or 44 special. Most carried smith 357s, either 66s or 686s. I don't know the percentage that were restricted to specials. There were always a some that barely qualified with anything. A few carried Colts or Rugers. There were a fair number carrying 44s and a few carrying 45LC. Some of the brass carried 44s and one I know of the long colt. Back up and off duty was pretty wide open and I don't recall any qualification with them early on. My backup/OD was a 669 or 60 depending on mood.

Eventually they permitted semiautos but you had to pass an extended transition course which included a fairly unreasonable qualification. I was one of the first to do the transition and carried a 645 but I didn't find it reliable and went back to my wheel gun. I later tried a 4506 but didn't find it any better so back to the 629 where I stayed except for my stint on the marine unit.

Eventually they issued duty guns phasing in with G21 I think. Later then switched to the Smith M&P (I think), had issues with it , went to 40 cal Glocks and just recently to Glock 17s. Those that were there were grandfathered, like me, were allowed to continue carrying what we had been.

I don't know why they chose that particular round for the 44. For awhile they issued the Speer 240 GDHP. What I have is some orphans found in the corner of the armory. They eventually quit buying ammo for the 44. I switched to a Kimber 1911 for my last couple of years when they quit buying 44. I think I was the last 44 guy. I don't know if there are even any wheel gun duty guns left now.

 

[jwk]

Oink that is interesting. Thanks.

 

[apollo99]

oink, that's sounds like the history of law enforcement firearms summed up in one post. I carried S&W 38 in the beginning of my career, switched to the Glock 19 to the end. For me to be able to carry a 29-2 4" would have been great. I bet they were good on gators.

 

[Doug M.]

I am 99% sure that the round in question is for personal defense against humans. It's better than bare hands (pardon the pun), but would not be my choice for bears if I had a real expectation of meeting one.

 

[oink]

I am 99% sure that the round in question is for personal defense against humans. It's better than bare hands (pardon the pun), but would not be my choice for bears if I had a real expectation of meeting one.

I'm not sure which round you're talking about. The OP's 210 WW STHP (which was an issued duty round for a short time) or the Speer 270 GDSP. I've shot some of the Speer 270GR GDSP in my 2.75" 69. It's fairly stout but doesn't seem too bad to me. And it does meet the bear criteria of being a somewhat heavier bullet with a broad lead flat tip. But I'm no bear expert and I don't know how the Speer would perform penetration wise. The WW silver tip is obviously designed for rapid expansion.

 

[oink]

oink, that's sounds like the history of law enforcement firearms summed up in one post.

Yeah, I guess it was fairly typical for a lot of agencies.

I bet they were good on gators.

Most anything works well enough on gators. A 22 mag might be ideal. When on land we generally caught and relocated the gators. For nuisance gators in bodies of water we'd call a trapper. I'm not really a fan of gator meat. Tastes kinda like chicken but not as good. I'd rather eat chicken.

 

[Doug M.]

Oink: I meant the silvertip.

 

[GunnerMichael]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Winchester advertises the 210gr 44 magnum Silvertip as a hunting round for deer and black bear. This is why I ask about black bear defense. They advertise the 44 special Silvertip for PD. They have very different construction and don't look anything alike.

I was not sold on the 210gr for black bear and as such I currently have the HSM 44 mag cowboy load which is a 240gr Semi Wadcutter LFN going around 1100 fps, and I am sold on that being acceptable for stopping black bear. But I think I might look into the 240gr XTP. I was also thinking about a medium weight Semi Jacketed Soft Point just under 1300 fps.

Like someone else said, the M69 is only 37oz and until I learn to manage recoil better I will not be shooting anything heavier than 255gr and nothing faster than around 1300fps. I have already shot a lot of different ammo and those seem to be manageable for me.

I cannot shoot those Heavy Buffalo Bore round in my revolver, at least they recommended against them. Double Tap offers a 44 Mag 240gr Bonded JSP that looks like a good bet. It's a bit hot but if I can manage the recoil that might be just the ticket.

I'm not in the hand loading game yet but plan to eventually.

- Gunner

 

[WPWarhawk]

JHP AMMO IS INTENDED FOR SD, AGAINST HUMAN TARGETS.....

FOR LARGE DANGEROUS CARNIVORES, YOU NEED HEAVY, HARD CAST, SOLID BULLETS. THEY WILL PENETRATE DEEP, AND SMASH LARGE BONES, THEREBY DROPPING YOUR TARGET, BEFORE IT CAN REACH YOU, IN AN ILL INTENTIONED CHARGE.....

What he said. Forget the 210 Silvertip for bears. The HSM bear load you mentioned would be a very good choice, or look at some of the Buffalo Bore loads.

 

[WPWarhawk]

I'll throw in my 2 cents - In your shoes, I would look at the Hornady factory 240 grain XTP loads. I have taken enough big game with this bullet (mostly in my own reloads) to know it penetrates deep and holds together as it should, while usually providing some expansion.

Why that bullet? Because a hard cast 240 / 300 SWC grain bullet will penetrate deep, but unless it hits the brain or spinal cord, is unlikely to immediately incapacitate a black bear.

The 240 grain XTP loaded to 1200 / 1300 fps will also penetrate deep enough (though usually not quite as deep as the hard cast SWC) to reach the brain / spinal cord of any black bear, with the added advantage of expansion / soft tissue damage on chest and body hits.

I don't base my opinion on theory, but on about 50 heads of big game taken with mostly XTP's and hard cast bullets over the years. Hard cast SWC's will kill, no doubt, but typically slower with body hits than an expanding bullet that holds together like the XTP's. Brain / spine? Don't matter then, as either style bullet will do the job. Years ago, I shot a small black bear up in Maine that was in self defense. A 230 grain hardball load out of a 1911 .45acp to the head at about 10 yards dropped him in his tracks.

That 210 grain Silver Tip is a soft bullet, and while penetration may be limited compared to heavier and stouter bullets, I would have to think that bullet, while not my first choice, would quickly kill a black bear shot broadside thru the heart / lungs, and would doubtfully just bounce off a bears skull.

If you are really concerned about penetration, Hornady offers a factory loaded 300 grain version of the XTP that would also be a good choice, and its not loaded to the very max., making it fairly controllable compared to some of the heavy weight speciality ammo out there. I used that bullet in my reloads to kill a big Maine moose with one shot with all the penetration I needed on an angling shot thru the chest and one shoulder.

Other jacketed bullets may work just as well, but I stick with the XTP's because they have proven themselves to me. I have also tried Nosler and Sierra 240's on deer as well, and they killed quickly on broadside heart / lung hits, but seemed a little soft for deep, angling shots.

Last note - One of the quickest black bear kills I have ever seen was back in the early 1980's. I was deer hunting in the thick stuff up in Maine. Besides my rifle, I was carrying my duty gun - a 4 inch .357 mag L frame loaded with 125 grain Remington SJHP duty ammo. Sitting facing a deer trail, I put down the rifle, and decided to try for a shot with the revolver. All of a sudden, a 250 lbs black bear appeared out of nowhere (they are good at that). Facing me at about 20 yards, and unaware I was there, I raised the pistol, and placed one shot, center chest, using the white spot on his fur as an aiming point. He reared up and "woofed", then fell dead. Not a recommended load, but picking up my rifle would have spooked him, and in the end, it did work. Good thing I don't take blood pressure meds...lol He was my first blackie with a handgun.

Larry

Just curious, what is the biggest animal you've killed with the XTP bullet?

I had the XTP factory load fail on a big cow elk on a Texas game ranch. Three shoulder hits and nothing penetrated the shoulder bone. It took a fourth bullet to the neck to put her down.

 

[Fishinfool]

Just curious, what is the biggest animal you've killed with the XTP bullet?

I had the XTP factory load fail on a big cow elk on a Texas game ranch. Three shoulder hits and nothing penetrated the shoulder bone. It took a fourth bullet to the neck to put her down.

The biggest was a bull moose at about 40 yards. One shot with a Ruger Redhawk, 300 grain XTP at about 1200 fps. Hit him on about on the last rib at 40 yards. Bullet penetrated thru the chest cavity, the off side shoulder, and was found under the skin. Bull walked fast for maybe 30 or 40 yards, then died. Thankfully near a logging road.

On deer sized game, I usually use the 240 grain version, and almost always get complete penetration on broadside shots with lots of internal damage. Shots with some angle to them still penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals in any reasonable shot. A bad hit is a bad hit, no matter what you are shooting though. I have seen deer stay on their feet for a long time with their guts literally hanging out from bad hits with high power rifles, and video taped a pig hunt where a friend shot a big boar 6 times with a model 29 using factory Winchester Black Talon ammo. At least 3 of those hits were well placed. Frankly, it was a mess, and took way to long. The last round to the head at point blank range was the killing shot. The rest had expanded before penetration into the chest cavity, and created wicked flesh wounds.

Larry

 

[riverrat38]

With a M69, I would be looking at Buffalo Bores Heavy 44 SPL Outdoorsman ammo. 255 gr Keith SWC at about 1000 FPS from a 4 inch barrel. BB rates it for up to 500 pound critters.

Best,
Rick

 

[THE PILGRIM]

As I have posted, my Buddy Milt had a problem taking a Black Bear with 357 Silvertips. And this Bear was treed.
As already mentioned, Silvertips are a expansion round, not a penetrating bullet.
Whatever the caliber selected, I vote for big and solid bullets.
PS It made a great rug!
It's a Cinnamon Red color.

 

[wood714]

I have a box of these, but aint seen the damn bear in 2 years.

 

[one eye joe]

I like the OPs first choice. The Silvertip should be manageable for the shooter while having enough punch for the black bear. Keep in mind this is a 37 oz revolver so recoil is a definite issue.

RECOIL WILL NOT MATTER TO A HUNTER KILLED BY A BEAR, shocker......

 

[HKSmith]

Alliant recommends 7gr max with 240gr lswc, and 10.3gr with 240gr jacketed..

Your load sounds dangerous.

Just checked the online Alliant Reloaders Guide. The recommended load for a 250 grain Keith cast SWC is 11.0 grains of Unique giving 1211 ft/sec. 7 grains is more of a .44 Special load.

 

[HamHands]

JHP AMMO IS INTENDED FOR SD, AGAINST HUMAN TARGETS.....

FOR LARGE DANGEROUS CARNIVORES, YOU NEED HEAVY, HARD CAST, SOLID BULLETS. THEY WILL PENETRATE DEEP, AND SMASH LARGE BONES, THEREBY DROPPING YOUR TARGET, BEFORE IT CAN REACH YOU, IN AN ILL INTENTIONED CHARGE.....

THIS! I carry Underwood's 255 grain Hard Cast "Keith" bullets in .44Special. They make for a bad day to even the heartiest/most pissed off of black bears. That semi-wadcutter hard cast pounds pelt, smashes bone, and stays nose forward thru vitals and anything else. They are rated at 1000fps and are easy to control for follow up shots. I've carried the same pill but in .44mag rated at 1300fps... which is just overkill for a black bear threat! Brown Bears though... it's totally suitable for those mean f-ers!

 

[junglefighter]

Reading through this thread again,I have a question for the experts.Federal makes a 300gr.HardCore in 44 mag.Is this a better round than a Hornady 300gr.XTP? I am shooting a M69 with 4.25in. bbl.I do not reload and am asking only factory ammo.I go to Nat'l.Parks and enjoy walking on the trails and with the latest fires,I am told the bear population is up.Thanks.

 

[Autonomous]

I think either would do. Their velocity and energy are very close. My bear loads are some hot Corbon hunting loads with the 300 gr XTP.
That said if I had the option I'd buy a box of each and see if your gun has a preference.

 

[HamHands]

With a M69, I would be looking at Buffalo Bores Heavy 44 SPL Outdoorsman ammo. 255 gr Keith SWC at about 1000 FPS from a 4 inch barrel. BB rates it for up to 500 pound critters.

Best,
Rick

That is a damned good load. A 255grain Hard Cast "Keith" @ 1,000 fps will drive deep, smash a hellofa lot of bone and pelt... That was my "Cherry" load until I got used to the hotter stuff in my 3" barreled M29-3, and more recently, an M629-5, a 3" barrel as well. It's stoked with Underwood's 305 grain "Keith" rated at 1300fps but pushes a constant 1,150fps out of my Mountain Back Packer. Either way, both those pills will pop a "BB's" Cherry for sure. I'm only using the heavier version because I'm comfortable with it; and shooting thru and into thick brush if need be... the heavier the better from my experience. The 255 grain @ 1,000fps would be my choice in the "L" frame. YMMv... I've also had good experience with the Federal Fusion, 240 grain loads rated at 1,290fps but push less out of a shorter barrel but still well above 1,100fps. They mushroom really well inside of 50 yards and are even more recoil friendly IME...