.44 snubs: What about the recoil

[Don K.]

lots and lots of interest in .44 snubs on the interwebs lately. I only shoot my .44 snubs DA (they are DAO) at self defense distances. I really have to work to shoot them half decently. I'm getting better, but I don't think shooting a.44 snub will ever be "easy". I have to put concentration and discipline in every shot. The least bit of sloppiness and you got a flier. Don't get me wrong, this is part of my admiration for the short barrel .44, but they can be demanding. I dryfire the snot out of them, do the coin balance etc.. I'm pretty good at holding that gun steady , but start sending 240/250 grains out of them and watch those groups open up. Mcgivern explains his upward shift and forward poke for speed shooting, is there some kind of proactive (vs. reactive) technique beyond dry firing to tame that recoil when shooting at moderate speeds? I also find that if I shoot too long, I'll start to flinch. I think that will be constant- there are only so many heavy bullet shots you can take before you wear down your recoil tolerance. Anyway, any advice or hints etc..
I have to say that yes, I am trying to replicate those tight .38 Special groups that some people shoot. I am at the point that i can get 1" groups at 5yds, and 2" groups at 7yds with 240g. wadcutter in the 800fps - 900fps range DAO out of my 2.5" Backpacker. I can cut cloverleafs with 3-4 shots and then I open up.
is it just practice/practice/practice?

 

[NE450No2]

I have seen actual films of Ed McGivern shooting. After his last shot, he was leaning into the recoil so hard he would step and some times do a little run foward.

As with any gun that is a hard kicker I would startout with lighter practice loads, and then finish u the shooting session with more powerful loads working up to what ever load I was going to carry.

Then, later I would start each session with a cylinder of two of the carry load [reloads of the same recoil level], practice with lighjter loads, then finish up with a cylinder of two of the carry load recoil level reloads.

Also something else to think about, you do not want your shots to hit that close together. The first hit makes a hole, you do not want the next rounds fired going through the same hole. Spread them out a little, make some new holes...

 

[BugEater]

44 Spl

Have you considered the 44 spl? Seems to me it would be a good SD round although admittedly, I prefer the smaller spl.

 

[Sportsterguy]

I HAD a 3" 29 and a 3" 629 and did not like shooting the revolvers with full power loads without a shooting glove on. Rubber full coverage grips helped over the Combats that draw blood on me every time I shot it with them on.

I think they are super cool looking and make a great hiking/camping gun, but you would be much better armed with a .357 K/L frame snub with 125 gr.Speer Gold Dot HP's if you are using it for a self defense weapon.

JMHO

 

[one eye joe]

That's pretty good shootin', Don K.

 

[Gunhacker]

It sounds like you're at the practical limit with what can be expected from a 2.5 inch barrel.. not only does sight radius come into play with the shorter barrels, but there is also the factor of their ability to stabilize certain weights of bullets for accuracy at longer distances.

I'd love to be able to accomplish what you're doing already.

I hope when you're dry firing the snot out of your gun you are not doing it rapidly with the DAO... that ends up with the cylinder bolt slamming against the cylinder notch wall when it stops the rotation and leads to the notch getting peened and loosening things up.

 

[snubshooter]

I assume that since the "backpacker" moniker that your weapon is scandium or some other light weight material. If so, even with those slow 800fps loads, it won't get much better. The only things you can do are the ol standbys Pachmeyers and magnaPorting.

 

[Old Navy]

I have a new 629 Custom Talo in 3" that I took off the wood finger groove combats and installed Pachmayr Decelerator grips off my 610 5" and headed to the range to see if arthritic old hands could stand the gun. From about 10 yards I put first shot dead center of the bulls eye with a aimed SA shot and second shot about 1/4" away from first shot, switched to DA and put 3 low and left from first shot. They were in about a 3" vertical line with about 3/8" separating each shot, and they were in about 30% angle bottom to top to right toward the bullseye. Round 6 was saved for large milk jug at same distance, got some water on me would you believe. I didn't use a shooting glove as this was to see how the gun would handle if it had to be used in SD in future. These were very warm hand loads in 1750 FPS range from 6.5" barrel. Love big Bertha. Those in picture are Cor-Bon 240 PD for CCW carry, but may carry my own loads and it now sports a "Plug" by Bullseye Smith.

 

[RedBerens]

What kind of grips are you using?

 

[large_orange_drink]

Sometimes you have to learn to walk before you can run. Keep your DA speed slow and deliberate until you can consistently keep a tight group at 5 yards, then do the same at 7 yards.

Don't speed up until your groups are tight and consistent...then start back at 5 yards and add a little speed, then 7 yards and repeat over and over until you find a pace you are happy with.

Speed and accuracy are two completely separate disciplines and you have to master accuracy first. Accurate, consistent and quick (in that order).

 

[4330Inroute]

I am at the point that i can get 1" groups at 5yds, and 2" groups at 7yds with 240g. wadcutter in the 800fps - 900fps range DAO out of my 2.5" Backpacker. I can cut cloverleafs with 3-4 shots and then I open up.
is it just practice/practice/practice?

That's some good shooting!

Well within acceptable 'minute of badguy' tolerances at what the experts would call 'typical gunfight ranges'.

 

[Old Navy]

What kind of grips are you using?

installed Pachmayr Decelerator grips off my 610 5"

L-O-D this was not a training session, but just a gun function test to see how it performed, while waiting on the "plug" from Bullseye Smith to arrive.

The gun will get rung out latter when it's not so hot and muggy. Hope you guys were talking to me.

Man two or three posted before I could post this, man I must be getting slow in my old age.

 

[large_orange_drink]

Sorry Old Navy I wasn't making a comment on your function test, I was offering some friendly advice that Don K. asked for in his original post.

Both of you guys are made of stronger stuff than I am to subject yourselves to what must be punishing practice sessions.

 

[cp1969]

Also something else to think about, you do not want your shots to hit that close together. The first hit makes a hole, you do not want the next rounds fired going through the same hole. Spread them out a little, make some new holes...

I don't think you'll have to worry about 'spreading them out' in an actual shooting, so for practice, if you can put them all in one hole, it's time to increase the range.

 

[Old Navy]

Sorry Old Navy I wasn't making a comment on your function test, I was offering some friendly advice that Don K. asked for in his original post.

Both of you guys are made of stronger stuff than I am to subject yourselves to what must be punishing practice sessions.

Ok that's cool either way, but sometimes I don't get it right with two little boys running around screaming and shouting, it rough on grandpa's concentration.

I will probably never shoot more then 4 cylinders full at any one time, it too expensive, too rough on hands maybe and I try not to get into areas I might have use the gun. But the first guy that tries car jack my MB will get his face blown off for sure.

 

[Don K.]

Wow, thanks for all the help everyone. Some questions have been brought up, so I'll try to answer. The Backpacker is a ported stainless 629 and I'm using the factory hogues. I have other grips that I'll run but I'm usually more comfortable with the Hogues. The Backpacker comes with Hi-viz sights and I am going to change those to a standard blade sight-no question I shoot those better. I'm not looking to be a speedshooter in any way. I'm running a 12lb rebound spring and it doesn't take much to outrun it. Sending rounds down too fast seems to ruin the enjoyment, I'd rather be as accurate and hard hitting as possible. Besides all I have is a Lee single stage and I'm lookin to wear it out lately. I dry fire purely for trigger/gun control and not speed. I would immagine that "Fast" DA pounds the guns up pretty bad. I also stop at 250G. at around 1100fps., nothing heavier. I play around with a bunch of different loads, but 240/250g. bounces around even at mousefart velocity, I got some X-Ring rubber practice bullets to practice draws and what not, and it was the strangest feeling to fire the snubs, hear a slight report, and not have that recoil. Thanks for the complements. I wonder about the limitations of these short barreled big bores. Right now I know i'm the weak link by a mile. I just can't keep that cylinder in one cloverleaf. I draw a circle using the cap of those Sharpie metal markers on copy paper for targets. most of the time i can put that first shot right in the center of that circle and the next couple almost on top of it, but then I open up. gotta work on that consistancy for sure. Thanks again to everyone and I look forward to trying out all the advice.

 

[goldenlight]

IMHO, if you own a 3" 44 magnum, in order to REALLY enjoy it, you pretty much HAVE to reload for it.

I have fired a total of 6 factory full power rounds out of my Lew Horton 3" 629-1. I don't intend to shoot ANY more.

Not because I CAN'T, but because....why would I WANT to!

I've loaded 250gr. Keith style semi wadcutters from 700FPS to 1200FPS.

The ones at 700FPS are real pussycat loads. The ones at around 1000FPS are stout, but not punishing. They develop about 550 ft. lbs. of energy.

I have loaded 240gr. JHP to the same energy level, and that's plenty 'warm' for me, from a 3" snubby 44 magnum.

FWIW, I load my Lew Horton Model 24 3" 44 Special to the same velocity, which is a SIGNIFICANT improvement over factory 44 Special loads.

At 7 yards, using this load, my groups firing double action are about 3", which I consider to be very acceptable.

Firing single action, I can shoot 1 to 1.5"" groups at 7 yards.

If I was going into bear country, I'd use full power 240gr. JSP's, and hope I didn't need them.

 

[Evil One]

It comes down to grips, practice, and some tolerance for recoil.
2 7/8" barrel, non ported, WWB 240 gr sp "hunting loads"
I went thru at least 100 rounds that day.
My big bore snubbies are my favorite handguns to shoot.
YouTube - Astra Terminator .44 magnum
All would have been torso shots if it was an advancing person.


Jim

 

[zombie44]

IMHO, if you own a 3" 44 magnum, in order to REALLY enjoy it, you pretty much HAVE to reload for it.

This is so true, I don't think I could even make it through one box of factory 44 mag. And you wouldn't have to settle for 44 specials for a softer recoil and end up with carbon rings in the cylinders since you can simply download 44 mag to 44 spcl levels quite easily.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Sounds like you've taken almost all the steps - ported, grips that are good for you, etc. I've noticed that some folks like .44 Mags and some don't. I've also noticed that a couple of mine seem to recoil a bit more than before. I believe that hand and arm strength are major factors (after grip fit) in whether a hard-kicking gun is usable. There's a lot to be said for squeezing a grip exerciser while watching TV. Arm exercises probably help, too, and even shoulder. Just figure out how to make them fit into your daily routine without costing any time, and just keep doing them. They will probably pay off.

 

[Sparrowbird]

I have some 200 grain light loads that are a ***** cat, but don't shoot too many of them. I usually go with 240 SWC around 1200 FPS. You can shoot 100 of those and not complain. I wouldn't want to shoot them all day. Grips are very important.

 

[Old Navy]

Believe me 6.5 grains of Trail Boss with a 240 grain lead SWC or RNFT is very easy on the hands a wrist and still gives a 925 FPS to 950 FPS muzzle velocity. And sure makes a snub 44 Mag a pleasure to shoot.

Trail Boss makes for 615 reloads from a 9 oz can. So $0.03 for powder, $0.04 for lead and $0.03 for primer, and third reload on $0.15 case = $0.15 for third reload. Beats the be-jabbers out of $1.25 to $2.00 for commercial ammo.

At these prices reloading gear is quickly paid for if you shoot much.

 

[RPD20]

I put Pachmayr Grippers for K and L frame round butt on my 3 inch 629ES. I like shooting Black Hills 300gr JHP @ 1150fps. They give a big push but I would not consider them painful at all.

 

[Stainz]

Here is how I make my 19.7 oz 2.5" AirLite Ti 296 a 'shooter' - add the Hogue made-for-S&W .500 Magnum monogrips - they fit K, L, N, & X-frames:

Of course, it is a 'pocketable' revolver, with the boot grips fitted:

It's function here is as a CCW/bedside protector, so it wears the boot grips 24/7. The Hogues did make it easy to follow-up and shoot a string of five SPC small plates efficiently - but that's not it's forte. It's only ammo is the .44 Special 200gr Gold Dot, Speer #4427, whether homebrewed, in CCI guise, or, my favorite, GA Arms first loads in brass - for less than the Al-cased Blazers (... and you gain reloadable brass!). They all make 802-805 fps from that 2.5" 296. That speed insures doubling the impact area in brisket or ballistic gel - pretty good defender for thin skinned threats.

I keep moonclips and speedloaders alike for all of my revolvers loaded with 'defensive' loads; ie, 158gr LHPSWC +P's for .38/.357M; 200gr Gold Dots for .44 Special/Magnums; and 250 gr Gold Dots for my .45 Colts. Of course, the plinkers are in the safe - but they have defensive ammo 'ready & waiting', should the need arise... and, none are real 'Magnums'.

Stainz

PS Neraly forgot... the boot gripped 296 presents a healthy whack to the hand with those 200gr Gold Dots.

 

[6pack]

Interesting grips, Stainz. I'll bet that makes it a piece of cake to handle.

 

[RightWinger]

So is it bad for my wheel guns to practice dry firing them really fast? I often do this to build up finger strength and practice keeping my sights aligned while dry firing......If it is bad to do this while dry firing wouldn't it be just as "bad" to do this while actually firing the gun? Just curious....

 

[Old Navy]

About only thing it can do IMHO is cause premature wear on the parts and possibly cause IFP to have a failure from too much travel, or at least that's what a gun smith told me. If it's a hammer mounted FP I would say just premature wear on internal moving parts.

 

[Meeteetse]

I'm sure it is a sign I'm getting old, but full house .44's are rare for me except in larger guns like my Redhawk or my Super Blackhawk. My S&W Mountain Gun is great to carry and a wonderful .44 spl gun and will remain so. I can't imagine anything that a 240 gr. .44 spl at roughly 900-1000 fps won't handle except big bears, and I don't live near big bears any longer.

The snubby .44's for me are no fun with full house loads. The recoil is tough but the muzzle blast is no fun either. Lighten the load a little and enjoy your snubby .44 a whole lot more.