.44 Special Universal loads and Brian Pearce

[GFU]

Hodgdon list the following for universal with a 240 gr lead semi wadcutter:

5.6gr = 873fps

Barrel is not specified.

Brian Pearce needed considerably more powder to achieve that velocity in a 6.5in barrel with a similar slightly heavier bullet.

I would like to achieve approximately 825-850fps out of my 2.5in 396

So my question is to those with a chronograph how many grains are you using in real guns to produce low to mid 800's?

Also to those familiar with Pearce's .44 S&W Special loads from the aug-sept 05 handloader have you found his velocities to be on par with your results out of you guns with similar barrels etc?

Thanks

 

[MMA10mm]

A big chunk of the problem here is that it is incredibly rare for any ballistics lab results to match up with any real gun results. This is for a variety of reasons, one of the biggest being that even with a "vented" test barrel, there's not the gas loss that happens in the barrel-cylinder gap.

As far as real guns, there are also too many variables to confidently tell you to use "this" charge or "that one" for a certain result.

First off, you have the lot-to-lot variance between the production lots of the brass, primers, powder and bullets, and that's assuming you use the EXACT same brand components as stated by any source, Brian Pearce, Lyman, or Whomever.

Second, you have the typical variance that happens because you may use Remington primers, but the others used CCI. Same for brass and bullets...

Lastly, you have the differences that each gun bring to the pot. Even same guns with same barrel lengths can be very different. This happens because of the differences between the guns in throating, barrel-cylinder gap fitting (or lack thereof...), internal barrel diameter, and barrel throating.

The real answer is that if you are that hung up with getting a certain velocity, you need to get your own chronograph. This doesn't NEED to be an actual electronic device. If you don't want to spend the <$100 for a Beta Chrony, you can compare how hard your load moves a bowling ball, compared to a similar load which you know or are confident has similar energy. In your example, I'd use a 45ACP Factory Ball load to compare to your 44 Special load. They should be really similar. If the 44Spl. as you load it consistently moves the bowling ball less than the 45, you need to bump up the powder charge. If it moves it more, cut the powder down a little...

 

[Rule3]

Well, Lyman 48th lists 5.6 grs Univ yielding 696fps and
6.3 for 814fps out of a 4"Universal receiver test barrel.

So how you are going to get more than that out of a 2.5" barrel???? Perhaps a different powder? 800 X,Sr4576. HS 6??

FYI, The Hodgdon online data is a 8" barrel

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

While I don't use that particular powder, I'll try to answer at least part of your question.

Yes, I have the exact same chrono as Pearce uses, and my velocities are generlly close to his, though mine are usually slightly lower. This may be due in part to elevation differences between where he lives (Idaho), and where I live currently (Michigan), but mostly due to normal differences between all guns. I am a huge fan of his writings because I believe that he tells it like it is more than most writers, and because he backs up his info and data with facts and pressure tested data, not just what he observes at his own range. I have tried a lot of the data he has given in the article you mentioned as well as the one he did specifically on the model 29 S&W, and the more recent one he did on +P loads for the Redhawk, and for the .45 Colt.

You may want to try Power Pistol. I tried the loads he listed in his .44 Special article, as well as the one he did on the Triple Lock S&W with that powder in my own TL and my 24-3. The loads were pretty close to his, and much closer to his than what is shown in loading data generally, and the powder is very clean burning. On top of that, it'll give higher than normal velocities than most powders while staying within SAAMI specs.

 

[GFU]

Thanks for the responses.

I have only been reloading for about a year.

I am reading as much as I can and keeping my loads simple.

I am still fascinated by the amount of variation that occurs with a small change in components as you have noted. Gives one a lot of experimenting to do.

Getting my own chronograph is the only real answer. I just have not had enough time to look into them to decide which model and which features I need.

I like the suggestion of using a known similar load and comparing effect on target. In fact my goal was to produce a .44 load similar to a .45acp load for general carry.

For now I will continue to start low and work up to the Pearce loads. Nice to know others are getting reasonably consistent results based on his loads. I guessed that his results would be closer to what I might achieve as his are in real guns.

Thanks

 

[Rule3]

If not already familiar with the Hodgdons web site, go here and enter you bullet, caliber and it will give you the test results from their test barrel. You can then determine what powder to use. It will pull all powders all bullets but then you can just enter one weight bullet and get data, then print it if you want.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

 

[Mule88]

I use 7.5 gn Universal and getting one inch groups from a rest at 25Yds. by far my favorite .44 spec. load.

 

[GFU]

OCD 1

Thanks for the tip on the web site. I have been using it but missed filtering it by bullet wt after it gave results for all bullets and powders.

Mule88 I just loaded up some 6.5gr and 7.3gr loads to try out so I might be on the right track. What gun are you using them in? Any idea of the velocity out of your gun?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Slower powders still give the best velocity in shorter barrels. It isn't without consequence though. It turns up as muzzle flash and recoil.

If it were me, I would go to 2400 and try an "Elmer Light" load. 2400, AA#9 can be downloaded a bit and still work ok. W296/H110 cannot.

Universal, if I remember right, is in the same area of Unique. I'm just not sure you are going to get that much velocity out of that short of barrel with that burn rate of powder. Maybe but maybe not.

If you are going to "play around" with loading outside of the data produced by the powder manufacturer, my suggestion is to get a chronograph of your own. They are a great too to the handloader.

Have fun and be safe.

 

[Hammerdown77]

I have both Universal and Unique, and they are close in performance and charge weight. Universal may be a tad more energetic than Unique, so sometimes it will load .5 to 1 grain less.

The "Skeeter" load is a 240-250 grain lead bullet over 7.5 grains of Unique, and this does about 975 out of my 5.5" Blackhawk. I would try starting with 6.5 grains of Universal and work up.

As far as "Elmer Light" loads go, for me, they'd have to be LIGHT to be used in the 396. The accepted Keith load in .44 Special is 250 grain lead bullet over 17 grains of 2400. I worked up to 16.5 grains in that same Blackhawk, and it was a total handful. It's really a hunting load. I'd think anything more than 14 or so grains in the 696 would be downright unpleasant.

Definitely get a chrony. I have a Chrony F1 Master with the detachable monitor that you can bring up to the bench. Got it for $70 something when Midway had them on sale. It will do everything you need a chrony to do.

 

[Mule88]

Im getting around 950 fps from a 6 1/2 M-624, Im guessing in the 900 range from my 4 incher.

 

[Joed49]

Makes me feel good to see Universal loads. I used Unique for years, it is a nasty, dirty burning powder. I've since switched to Universal and Power Pistol. PP is a good powder and provides some excellent velocities.

 

[Jellybean]

Hodgdon list the following for universal with a 240 gr lead semi wadcutter:

5.6gr = 873fps

Barrel is not specified.

In the latest printed, complimentary Hodgdon loading data manual that I have, they list the barrel length for that combination as 8". I have noticed that they tend to use longer barrels so they can "advertise" higher velocities than other sources.

They also state they used Starline brass and Winchester LP primers, in case you care.

 

[handgunner356]

I've been going to try some 240gr LSWCs' loaded a little hotter. The 5.6grs of Universal was only giving me around 700fps out of my 6" gun. Well below the 873fps from the manual. The 200gr JHPs' ran much closer to the book, 6.8grs Universal was to run 967fps and I actually got 887fps from my gun. I like to try some loads with Longshot, they run real close to book in my magnum loads but they haven't listed any loads for Special yet.

 

[TAROMAN]

Just got my first chronograph. Most loads are 100 FPS less than the manuals show. 4.4 gr of Trail Boss with a 240 LSWC gave a whopping 475 FPS in my 3" .44 Special. I could easily see the bullets travelling downrange.

 

[cp1969]

Just got my first chronograph. Most loads are 100 FPS less than the manuals show. 4.4 gr of Trail Boss with a 240 LSWC gave a whopping 475 FPS in my 3" .44 Special. I could easily see the bullets travelling downrange.

You know what the best thing about this is? That you see the bullet. It means you're not blinking at the shot, like so many people do. They never see anything, no matter the velocity.

 

[gwalchmai]

Just got my first chronograph. Most loads are 100 FPS less than the manuals show. 4.4 gr of Trail Boss with a 240 LSWC gave a whopping 475 FPS in my 3" .44 Special. I could easily see the bullets travelling downrange.

How tightly are you crimping these boolits?

 

[TAROMAN]

Very firm roll crimp.