444 Marlin quandary
- Thread starter Ceapea
- Start date
Well, send me 150 once-fired Hornady and I'll send 99 new Starline. 
I bought my 444 back in the early '70's. At the same time I ordered 200 brand new never fired Hornady brass. Then purchased 1000 Hornady 265 grain flat point jacketed to load. The 240 that was being factory loaded at the time was the only factory load available. The problem with the 240 rem was that it didn't work properly at the speeds generated by a 444. They worked for a 44 rem Mag.
I have never felt any need to even go to any other bullet for the 444. The 265 flat point is perfectly designed for the rifle and for it's speed.{and works in the tubular magazine}
I've used this rifle on both deer and black bear with success. I'm not sure why you would want to mess with case lengths or anything with this gun.
Keep it simple. The wheel doesn't need re-inventing. {I do use 4198}
I have never felt any need to even go to any other bullet for the 444. The 265 flat point is perfectly designed for the rifle and for it's speed.{and works in the tubular magazine}
I've used this rifle on both deer and black bear with success. I'm not sure why you would want to mess with case lengths or anything with this gun.
Keep it simple. The wheel doesn't need re-inventing. {I do use 4198}
Squarebutt
Member
OP, before you load up 300 rounds in the FTX brass, make sure they'll feed through the rifle at that length. Some lever guns can be fussy with shorter ammo. Owners of .44 and .357 magnum lever rifles have sometimes complained that their guns work fine with magnum rounds, but choke on ,44 and .38 Specials. Good luck.
The .444 Marlin (or maybe a Winchester) rifle is on my wish list. I've managed to acquire a set of dies and a little brass, still looking for the right rifle.
The .444 Marlin (or maybe a Winchester) rifle is on my wish list. I've managed to acquire a set of dies and a little brass, still looking for the right rifle.
Thanks.
But I am planning to use the 240 LRNFP at published loads with a velocity of 1450-1525 FPS.
Thanks, and good luck finding your rifle.
I too have read about 357 mag/44 mag rifles not feeding spl rounds. I have been lucky in that my rifles in those calibers do feed the spl rounds. But I have experimented in loading both 38 spl and 44 spl rounds long, bullet seated to magnum lengths, to see if there was any improvement. Or really, just to pass the info along to those experiencing the feed issue. All long loaded rounds feed and shoot perfectly!
The 444 Marlin is a fun caliber to reload for and can be a thumper, for sure. The 240 grain load you're looking at should be a real joy to shoot.
I also use Lee's collet crimp die. My 300 grain reloads tend to hit pretty hard...
I also use Lee's collet crimp die. My 300 grain reloads tend to hit pretty hard...
444 Marlin is out of stock with no plans to make them anytime soon. I checked the site and called to speak with them.
So, I was able to pull a factory Hornady cartridge apart. The FTX bullet is .525" from bottom to the center of the cannelure. The LRNFP bullet is .388" from bottom to top of crimp groove. Or, .137" shorter than the FTX bullet. The FTX seats considerably deeper into the case, all the while sitting on top of a considerably "warmer" charge of the same powder. There is more case volume available (even in the shortened case) using the LRNFP bullet. Pressure will not be an issue with the lead bullet fully seated to the crimp groove. The Hornady load, in the short case, is 36.6 gr to 41.9 gr IMR4198.
With a 25 gr lighter, and .137" shorter (effectively) bullet, a 12%-23% lower charge of the same powder (still a published load for powder/bullet combination), I feel completely comfortable and safe making ammo for the 444 Marlin using all the above components.
Now, I will load up 10 rd each at 28.0 gr and 30.0 gr. A few each for test firing/recoil and case inspection. And a few each for accuracy/grouping.
With a 25 gr lighter, and .137" shorter (effectively) bullet, a 12%-23% lower charge of the same powder (still a published load for powder/bullet combination), I feel completely comfortable and safe making ammo for the 444 Marlin using all the above components.
Now, I will load up 10 rd each at 28.0 gr and 30.0 gr. A few each for test firing/recoil and case inspection. And a few each for accuracy/grouping.
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STORMINORMAN
Member
To my way of thinking the important measurement is not comparing them from crimp to canellure, but from the base of the bullets to the base of the case. Regardless of how long the case is, the volume in which the powder is contained and the resultant pressures depend upon this measurement. Canellure & crimp groove location is, to me, secondary (if not tertiary?) to establishing case volume.
I don't think using a shorter case length (thereby exposing more of the bullet's shank) is critical in a straight walled cartridge, as it could be in a bottle-necked cartridge as far as neck tension on the bullet is concerned.
If those bullets had no canellure OR a crimp groove or a plastic tip, where (how long?) would you load them and why? The plastic tip is just there to prevent ignition in the magazine tube, is it not?
NOTE: This is not taking into consideration whether these rounds will reliably function in a lever action: I am only referring to the volume of the case and the amount of the powder and the weight of the bullet.
Just my observations, I could be way off base. I thought the original premise had to do with shorter cases and different design & weight bullets...
Cheers!
I don't think using a shorter case length (thereby exposing more of the bullet's shank) is critical in a straight walled cartridge, as it could be in a bottle-necked cartridge as far as neck tension on the bullet is concerned.
If those bullets had no canellure OR a crimp groove or a plastic tip, where (how long?) would you load them and why? The plastic tip is just there to prevent ignition in the magazine tube, is it not?
NOTE: This is not taking into consideration whether these rounds will reliably function in a lever action: I am only referring to the volume of the case and the amount of the powder and the weight of the bullet.
Just my observations, I could be way off base. I thought the original premise had to do with shorter cases and different design & weight bullets...
Cheers!
STORMINORMAN ^^^^ has it right, in my opinion. Only thing I'd add is a 444 Marlin can benefit from a good crimp in the cannelure. If the case mouth doesn't align with the cannelure, that's not possible. You really don't want that bullet moving around in the case mouth.
Not sure we are talking about the same things. The bullet I want to use (and will) has a crimp groove. When seated to the groove on my bullet, or to the cannelure on the FTX bullet, the lead bullet (my bullet) leaves an additional .137" more case depth (base of bullet to base of case), and resulting volume than with the factory FTX bullet. (See the attached pic above.)
In instances where there was no groove/cannelure, I just load to industry standards...book length recommendations.
Am I missing something else that you are meaning to tell me?
Thanks!
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Looking at my picture, I do plan to load to the crimp groove, and that still leaves more room in the case than with the FTX bullet. Besides that, without modifying the crimp die, a good firm crimp is not achievable with either the seating/crimp die, nor the collet crimp die. Lots of bearing surface though. And like I said, one at a time only...no mag tube filling for this gun.
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STORMINORMAN
Member
I was, perhaps, unintentionally confusing...?
What I was trying to impart was that regardless of the length of the case (shorter Hornady vs. "full length") the important measurement pressure wise is how much room there is between the bottom rim of the case (the base) and the bottom of ANY bullet used.
The amount of any bullet that extends beyound the upper rim (the exposed shank) is going to be dependent upon the weight and design of the bullet. Your image suggests that if loaded to the crimp groove on the lead bullet it should project into any case less than the tipped bullet would. This is good: it would indicate (at least to me) that in all cases (instances might be a better word?) there would be more available case volume for the powder charge and should not, therefore, generate excessive pressures.
If these bullets are going to be loaded individually into the chamber the question of OAL becomes almost moot: they don't have to function from the tubular magazine anymore, just fit.
One could use other, "pointy" spitzer-type bullets as well, as is done with the 30-30 quite often I'm told.
My concerns were about pressure and the concept that canellures and crimp grooves need not be the determining factor as to where to load a bullet. If a bullet had neither, how should one make the determination of how deeply into a case the bullet should be loaded?
Cheers!
What I was trying to impart was that regardless of the length of the case (shorter Hornady vs. "full length") the important measurement pressure wise is how much room there is between the bottom rim of the case (the base) and the bottom of ANY bullet used.
The amount of any bullet that extends beyound the upper rim (the exposed shank) is going to be dependent upon the weight and design of the bullet. Your image suggests that if loaded to the crimp groove on the lead bullet it should project into any case less than the tipped bullet would. This is good: it would indicate (at least to me) that in all cases (instances might be a better word?) there would be more available case volume for the powder charge and should not, therefore, generate excessive pressures.
If these bullets are going to be loaded individually into the chamber the question of OAL becomes almost moot: they don't have to function from the tubular magazine anymore, just fit.
One could use other, "pointy" spitzer-type bullets as well, as is done with the 30-30 quite often I'm told.
My concerns were about pressure and the concept that canellures and crimp grooves need not be the determining factor as to where to load a bullet. If a bullet had neither, how should one make the determination of how deeply into a case the bullet should be loaded?
Cheers!
We got the 444 Marlin out today. At 25 yd, from a rest, both loads shot exactly the same. And that was very good in my opinion. Both loads (240 gr LRNFP and 28.0 and 30.0 IMR4198) shot a one hole, 3 shot group of 9/16"! And two more in each group opened them both up 1 ½" exactly. I may consider experimenting with pistol powders…but why?? These loads shoot!
Also, pressures were high enough (but VERY low…recoiling like shooting a 38-lever gun!) to provide enough expansion at the case mouth to prevent soot. And, being that the case is too short to accept a crimp from 444 Marlin dies, I experimented with a second Lee FCD for 44 spl/magnum die set. Guess what! It worked! I had to crimp each by feel (aren't they all?) and couldn't fully cycle the press handle. But it provides a very easy to perform, consistent crimp.
Also, pressures were high enough (but VERY low…recoiling like shooting a 38-lever gun!) to provide enough expansion at the case mouth to prevent soot. And, being that the case is too short to accept a crimp from 444 Marlin dies, I experimented with a second Lee FCD for 44 spl/magnum die set. Guess what! It worked! I had to crimp each by feel (aren't they all?) and couldn't fully cycle the press handle. But it provides a very easy to perform, consistent crimp.
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