45 - 70 Frustration

[Engineer1911]

I have a Taylor's Arms Quigley Sharp's replica in 45-70 with a 32" barrel. With a Saeco cast 420 grain gas checked 0.457" diameter bullet and 31.5 grains of Accurate Arms 5744 powder, this rifle will shoot inside the 10 Ring on a 25 yard pistol target at 100 yards for at least 50 rounds without a problem. I shot a 200 yard centerfire high power rifle bullseye target at 200 yards with the same load, and my score for 8 rounds was 78: 4 X's, 2 - 10's, and 2- 9's .

Now the frustration: It has no accuracy shooting the Lee 405 grain cast bullet with a plain base. It was the same batch of melted lead, same bullet lube, same sizer, same powder, just a Lee mold. The best group has been inside the 10" square repair center for a pistol target. I have used the 25 and 50 yard target centers at 100 yards. I have tried AA 5744, AA 2230, IMR 4198 powders as suggested by the Accurate Arms or Lyman reloading manuals. My charges have been max load for 1873 Springfield Trapdoors to 2.0 grains less than starting for Marlin or Winchester lever guns.

Does anyone have a low pressure load for the Lee 405 grain bullet with the flat nose, part number 457-405-F, in a Springfield Trapdoor or Sharps rifle clone [not a Ruger #1]? I'm looking at muzzle velocity in the 1,400 FPS to 1,700 FPS range.



EDIT: The Lee mold as-cast bullet diameter is 0.457" to 0.458" . I have tried 350 grain commercial cast lead bullet with even worse results when I first got the rifle. The Saeco mold gives great accuracy but has recoil that can be uncomfortable. The Lee 400 grain bullet has 'tolerable' recoil but lousy accuracy. I'm just trying to find a smokeless powder load that will give good accuracy. Black powder, a different mold, alloy tinkering, bullet lube experimentation are not going to happen. My next step is a phone call to Lee for their words of wisdom. Lee Precision 'Words of Wisdom' (12/04/2018) QUOTE: "Some cast bullets just don't shoot accurately in some guns. I can't give out any load data." END QUOTE We had another 5 minutes of no-solution discussion using a different mold.

Thank you for your suggestions.

EDIT 2-2-19: This is the results of two trips to the range. I can't say much positive about the Lee 0.457" diameter mold, but it can be fiddled with to cast a larger diameter bullet (not going to try). I did buy the 0.459" single cavity, hollow base Lee mold on sale at MidwayUSA, going to cast new bullets this afternoon. Reloader #7 didn't help anything. I had 50 rounds with carefully sorted bullets sized at 0.458" . There were 23 bullets that were culled from the sized bullets as unsatisfactory. Those 23 shot the smallest group of the day -- about 4" at 100 yards. The other 27 "good" bullets had multiple fliers, but the accurate ones went into the 4" group growing it to ~5". Three other shooters shot the rifle and came away with big grins. First time shooters of a "buffalo gun" were happy, that is what range time is all about, having fun!

 

[Hang-Fire Hank]

PURE SPECULATION

Engineer 1911:
You may be slightly under groove diameter with a .457 bullet. My Shiloh Sharps slugs out at .458, which I think is the nominal for most 45-70 single shots. Why the gas checked bullet stabilizes & the plain base doesn't...? Does the gas check mic out at .458 after lube/sizing?

If your lead mixture is hard, the bullet at .457 may not be expanding when fired to fill the grooves. Expanding gas along the sides of the bullet would affect accuracy. Have you checked for leading with the Lee bullet?

I don't think the difference in performance between those two bullets is powder choice. Buy/borrow a .458 or .459 sizer die to see whether that will make a difference.

Good Luck, Hank M.

 

[Bakebfr480]

Try a 458 or larger bullet with the same powder. If you want real accuracy you're gonna have to go with the "holy" black and at least a 500 grain cast bullet!

 

[Drm50]

Are you shooting those bullets as cast? For a rifle like your you should get
a good mold that drop .460" slugs that can be sized at least .458 or even
better .459. My bullet mix is 50:50 wheel weights & lead.

 

[rockquarry]

Shoot the largest diameter bullet that will chamber without difficulty. Could be .459" or even .460" with many rifles.

However, if you're getting good accuracy with the SAECO bullet, looks like .457" bullets are compatible with the bore. What is the as-cast diameter of the Lee bullet? If it's undersize for your bore, it won't work.

If alloy and fit are just right, you should be able to shoot a plain base bullet at your desired velocity. If everything is less than perfect, however, results won't be good. You may have to experiment with mixture hardness and diameter for best accuracy.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

By the groups posted, the Saeco bullet load is the one to stick with. So why mess with success?

However, before I had a Shiloh Sharpe's I had a FIE by Pieta. The rifling would only work with soft lead, .002 or .003 larger than bore and nothing over 1300 fps! Maybe the Lee load is too fast.

I use 20:1 (Lead:Tin) alloy and SPG lube (was developed for BP but works great with AA5744 and IMR3031!

Ivan

 

[ddixie884]

Try shooting the Lee unsized and pan lubed if it will chamber. The gas chek on the Saeco may be springing back to give you a larger base to fill the grooves better.

 

[glowe]

There are so many little things that affect accuracy on 45-70 rifles that it is difficult to guess what your problems are, but I find the major thing that affects accuracy on my 32" 45-70 and 34" 45-90 Sharps rifles is OAL. I always load so the bullet touches the grooves of the rifling, leaving the slightest marks on the bullet. Low SD, consistent velocities, and good accuracy are the result of doing this.

My go to load has always been 3031 powder and 350 RNFP gas check bullets. I would not consider your 1700 fps a low pressure load. The fastest loads I shoot in my Sharps is 1700 fps and I do get tired of the recoil after a few shots. I can shoot my 40 grain 3031 load under the 350 GC all day. It runs at 1400 fps and gives me 1 1/4" groups at 50 yards. My 1700 fps load is more accurate (1" at 50 yards), but as mentioned not as much fun.

I use Alox to lube bullets and it works well for both Smokeless and black powder. I also use Pufflon and get very low SD numbers. As for sizing, my last station is to run the finished round through the deprimer/sizer die and never have a problem chambering them. I remove the deprime rod first of course and get a finished round just about .002" bigger than the lands.

I am sure there are lots of accurate loads out there, but these have taken me a long time to perfect for my guns. Of course, every rifle is a little different so experimentation is vital to getting these buffalo guns to hit where you aim and half the fun of shooting. Those things I have found that contribute the most to my accuracy include gas checks, proper OAL for these large bore guns, and filling the case to stabilize the powder at the base of the case.

 

[BigMuddy]

I have not used the Lee mold you mention so my comments probably don't mean much...but here goes.

I have used a few Lee molds and have never had an accurate bullet from one. I don't use any of them anymore. I have and still use several Saeco molds and have never had one that throws bullets that are not great shooting projectiles.

My cast bullet mentor shoots his Sharp's 45-70 quite a bit slower. He uses 25gr. 5744 with an RCBS 415gr plain base bullet. Around here he is a long range shooting legend!

Dan

 

[BB57]

When I lived out west I used a 480 gr Lyman 458658. Since my Sharps was long throated I could seat it long and also used a compression die to stuff more FFg in it. The more powder it had the better it shot and it was a 1 MOA capable load with a SD of about 5 fps.

When I transferred to the east coast, I struggled to develop an inexpensive and easy to clean up smokeless load that would give good accuracy out to 300 yards or so using a 405 gr RNFP bullet.

Take a look at Lyman's cast bullet data for their 400 grain 457643 and their 420 grain 457193. I settled on about 14 grains of Unique, with a 5/8" square by 1/4" thick polyester (quilt batting) wad in the case on top of the powder. It is NOT a trapdoor load but should work well in any modern Sharps replica. It also gives me 1 MOA accuracy and 1,200 fps velocity.

 

[amazingflapjack]

I agree on the .458 bullet diameter. I used the IMR-16 gr-but it was still a little warm. I remember reading some about a 1200 fps round, but can't remember which powder. I recently saw someone post about a successful use of 10 grains of Unique. I was aware that there was a 15 grain recipe for Unique, but never tried either-wish I had, Marlin CB is gone now.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Mine is also a Pedersoli Sharps that a simply love so much as to bring my wife near insanity.Mine is a Billy Dixon model but otherwise,I guess,quite similar of yours.
First thing I've discovered is that my gun would shoot ok but not great with .457 sized bullets.Its best performance was delivered with the 400gr RCBS bullet(either with or without gc)topping a minimum load(Trapdoor load)of 4759 powder(I don't like cleaning guns having been shot with charcoal burner).RCBS gas checked 300gr bullets were second best.
I've tried many bullets in it:500 gr Saeco,Lyman I think they sell as a 450gr and comes out at 485gr in my alloy,Lee 500 RFN+gc,and a few others.Tried them sized .457 and unsized.
Now unsized seemed to be slightly more consistant until I bought a 350 gr Lee mould;left unsized and surface lubricant(LLA) the thing will throw its pills one on top of the other at 50yds(aprox .75 to 1'' at 50 yds)when propelled by 13.0 gr of Unique(Ed Harris recommendation)
Sometimes,less pricy bullet mould and lubricant will pull the rabbit out of the hat.With lead bullets,it pays even more to experiment.

 

[jag312]

I shoot trap door Springfields, and I had a problem with accuracy with plain base bullets, until I tried the Lee 405 gr hollow base bullet. The bullet expands to fit the bore. Have you given that a try.


Also, I use black powder; 55 grains FFg as a carbine load and 65 grains for a rifle load. I can't get 70 grains in modern brass cartridge cases.

 

[BB57]

Mine is also a Pedersoli Sharps that a simply love so much as to bring my wife near insanity.Mine is a Billy Dixon model but otherwise,I guess,quite similar than yours.

The Taylor Sharps are made by Armi Sport - now under the Chiappa banner, but Chaippa appears to leave them alone and lets them continue to produce high quality rifles. The Taylor 1885 High Walls are made by Uberti.

My Sharps pictured above is an Armi Sport imported by Cimarron, and I also have an Uberti 1885 imported by Stoeger.

People often make comparisons between Pedersoli and Armi-Sport sharps and in my experience the quality of fit and finish really depends on who imported it and what they specified. A high quality spec'd Armi Sport will be superior to a lower spec'd Pedersoli and vice versa.

For example, at two different LGSs within 5 miles of me right now are two Pedersoli Sharps. One is a very high end cased model that has superb finish, checkering etc. The other has checkering that looks pressed.

Both get compared poorly to C Sharps and Shiloh Sharps rifles, and not without merit. However, I don't regret purchasing mine 20 or so years ago, given the wait time then for a Shiloh Sharps was about 4 years and the price was about 3 times higher than what I paid for my Italian Sharps. And even 20 years old, shot a lot (but well cared for) I can still get about 50% more than I paid for it if I chose to sell it. My Italian Sharps looks great and shoots great, and most of that I'm really missing is the snob appeal of the American made Sharps.

I am however not a big fan of the Pedesoli Soule sight as it is much more difficult to use (for accurate shooting) than other Soule sight options - but it works if you work around it's limitations.

 

[BB57]

45-70 cast bullets are large in diameter and comparatively heavy in weight and a bullet that does not obturate to the full groove diameter will have issues with both leading and accuracy.

Rapid obturation of the bullet is assisted by selecting a bullet diameter that is well suited to the throat diameter. You want just enough room in the throat for the case to be able the expand and cleanly release the bullet.

The common practice is to use a bullet .001" larger than the bore diameter (slugging the bore to find that diameter), but that won't always be the right diameter to fit the throat. In general I agree that you don't want to size a bullet more than .001" when you're loading your ammo, but I have not found any issues with sizing a cast lead bullet more than that in the bore. Provided it chambers easily and you work the load up carefully I don't see much reason to ever size a cast bullet down.

The second factor that comes into play is the hardness of the bullet alloy. Trap door Springfield cast bullet loads will run around 17,000 CUP maximum, while the lever gun data will run around 28,500 CUP maximum with cast bullets. Cast bullet Ruger loads will run up around 40,500 CUP maximum.

You need to select an alloy that is well suited to the pressure. Wheel weights (12 BHN) or Lyman No 2 alloy (15 BHN) work pretty well at 17,000 to 28,000 CUP pressures. I don't recommend ever going any harder than water quenched wheel weights (BHN 18) in a .45-70 cast bullet.

You also need to be aware of the effect the alloy has on both weight and diameter in a.45-70 bullet. For example, a bullet that weighs 400 grains with Lyman No 2 alloy with a .459" cast diameter will be around .457" in diameter and about 412 grains when cast in wheel weights (and 1% tin for better mold fill). Thus you'll need to know the intended alloy for the mold, compare that to what you plan to actually use and then order the appropriate mold diameter so that you'll get the appropriate cast diameter for your rifle's throat.

The 405 gr. .45-70 bullets in particular often come in bevel base designs that are easier to seat but are, in my experience, not as accurate as flat base designs and are more prone to leading.

Finally, black powder gives excellent accuracy with .45-70 loads as the pressure 'curve' is in fact a fast, linear rise in pressure, which helps the bullet obturate in the bore (and also helps quickly seal the case to the chamber, keeping gas out of the action.

Similarly, faster smokeless powders like Unique tend to be accurate as the rapid pressure curve helps the bullet obturate sooner and better in the bore. You won't get maximum performance with this powder, but you will have a better chance of good accuracy in a black powder velocity load. It will also help expand the case sooner and keep gas from coming back into the action.

This is a complaint heard from some cowboy actions shooters using reduced loads. They apparently don't understand the need for a rapid rise in initial pressure to seal the case to the chamber before the bullet exits the case - especially with a modern straight wall case like the .357 magnum, where it has neither a mild bottle neck or a thin case wall (two features found on nearly all black powder era cartridges) to help the case seal at lower pressures.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I totally agree with you in the rapid rise of pressure to make sure the bullet's base expands to seal the bore.I also found that guys are obsessed with casting with an alloy that is too hard.I cast quite soft(don't have a lead hardness tester...yet),softer than ww and don't water quench them.I load in the 20 to 25KpsiKpsi area and since going that route,seem to see improvements in my grouping.I keep experimenting along that way.

 

[BB57]

I totally agree with you in the rapid rise of pressure to make sure the bullet's base expands to seal the bore.I also found that guys are obsessed with casting with an alloy that is too hard.I cast quite soft(don't have a lead hardness tester...yet),softer than ww and don't water quench them.I load in the 20 to 25KpsiKpsi area and since going that route,seem to see improvements in my grouping.I keep experimenting along that way.

Many folks trying cast bullets think that a harder bullet will be less prone to leading. Copper jackets are hard right? The two things they miss are 1) swaged lead cores in jacketed bullets are in fact quite soft and allow for adequate obturation even at lower pressures, and 2) the melting point of the copper jacket much higher than lead so it's not prone to gas cutting prior to the bullet fully obturating.

In contrast, a lead bullet that is too hard for the pressures involved won't obturate fast enough, or won't fully obturate at all, and the gas slipping past the bullet will melt lead and deposit it in the bore.

-----

Leading toward the end of the bore is a classic sign of a lube failure, not an alloy problem so if you're getting lead only in the last quarter of the bore or so, you need to improve the lubrication. Powder coating is the current fad but I'm old school and will use 1 or 2 light coats of Lee Liquid Alox.

The improved lube will then also let you use a slightly softer alloy, while an alloy that is too hard, still won't obturate properly and will still experience gas cutting.

Consequently, if in doubt improve the lube, and go softer, not harder.

 

[fredj338]

A gc bullet is more forgiving to bullet dia. I would bump to 0.459" with plain base for better accuracy. lubes matter more too with plain base too.

 

[samnev]

When I was shooting My 45/70 1874 Shiloh Sharps I got good results with the Lyman 385 grain hard cast bullet sized to .458 with 4759.

 

[Bakebfr480]

I shoot a Hoch 550 gr. creedmoor bullet on top of 70 grs. of Swiss 1 1/2 blackpowder and at 250 yards if I'm doing my job will shoot 5 shots into 2 1/2 inches with either my Pedersoli long range express Sharps or my C. Sharps 30 inch full octagon Sharps!