45/70 powder charges - 300 gr. cast bullet

[Rafter-S]

I am loading a few rounds of 45/70 for my Ruger Number 1. The bullet is Tennessee Valley's 300 grain cast (a nice looking bullet, I might say). My old Lyman handbook shows a load of 44 grains of IMR 3031 powder as a start, and should produce ~1500 fps velocity. I have some 3031 so I will load a few. I also have a new can of IMR 4895 but can't put my hands on any reliable loading data for it.

I found this post/comment in a goggle search: "4064 is a bit slow for the 45-70, I think 3031 is probably the best 45-70 choice in the IMR line. I've used 4198 and sr 4759, but when limited to IMR powder would stick with 3031, or maybe 4895."

Too bad the poster did not give a charge for 4895. So my question for you gentlemen is, do you know of loading data for IMR 4895 using 300 grain cast bullets?

Thank you in advance.

Rafter-S

 

[Paul5388]

I don't use rifle powders in my .45-70. All they do is increase the recoil to produce the same velocity that can be obtained otherwise.

Here's 20.0 gr of Blue Dot with a 300 gr Rem JHP seated to the cannelure and a Win LR primer at 100 yards (I think it's a 1 1/8" group CTC). It clocks about 1475 fps MV out of my 22" Handi rifle.

I've shot as much as 25.0 gr with that bullet, but the accuracy wasn't as good.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I've shot hundreds of cast bullets in .45/70. Best resource I've found is the Lyman Reloading Handbook (I have the 46th Edition), as Lyman has done an enormous amount of research on cast bullet loads.

The Lyman manual lists a number of recommended powders, but not IMR 4895.

I have had very good results with modest loads of IMR 4198 with cast bullets ranging from 300 grain plain base to 500 grain gas check.

My rifles include Trapdoor Springfields and an original Winchester 1886 so I stick with loads approximating original pressure limits. Even at that I haven't found a beast in the Rocky Mountains that I would hesitate to tackle with the .45/70!

 

[steveno]

I never had any luck at all with plain based lead bullets in my Ruger #1S in 45-70. gas checked lead bullets & jacketed bullets shot really good. my favorite powders were Unique and 2400

 

[running iron]

I use 23 grs. of 4198 for about 1000 fps. with a 300 lead F.P. bullet. A very light target load that is fun for every one to shoot. BUT YOU SHOULD USE A FILLER. I use Dacron from a fabric shop. I have not used it, but was told that this was a very foolish thing to do, so I will never load this light of a load without a filler. For a more powerful load I use 33 grs. of 4198 for about 1500 fps. no filler needed. These are very light loads for your Ruger, so I would consider them to be the low end, but they are accurate and fun for target use. I have also used 30 grs. of 4198 with the 500 gr. Hornady at 1200 fps. This load will stop a bull elk in his tracks. All these loads are for level 1 guns, so they are very light in your Ruger. The 500 gr.Hornady does have some kick, even at just 1200 fps. 4198 is a good powder for this type of load.

 

[Paul105]

Look in the 45-70 (Trapdoor Rifles Category) on Hodgdon's website:

Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com

 

[Paul5388]

A good source for CAS type loads that also work well with cast bullets and etc is here.
Lever Gun Performance Studies

If you use a flake powder, like Blue Dot, you don't need and shouldn't use a filler.

 

[lafayne]

I use IMR4198 almost exclusively now in my No. 1. However, I only load jacketed bullets. Usually the 300 Sierra and the 405 Remington. With the 300 Sierra, I use 36.0 grains for lower power and 50 grains for thumpers.

I do plan to try some Trail Boss this year with lower velocity loads with the 405 Remington because I have a bunch of them. With cast bullets, TB would be my first powder to try.

I love the 45-70. I have tried IMR 3031, but 4198 has performed better for me.

 

[buckeyeshooter1]

I use 3031 or reloader 7.

 

[fredj338]

I don't use rifle powders in my .45-70. All they do is increase the recoil to produce the same velocity that can be obtained otherwise.
I've shot as much as 25.0 gr with that bullet, but the accuracy wasn't as good.

Well, only if you want to stay with Trapdoor vel. For higher vel. you are going to have to go to fast rifle powders like 4198, 3031, etc. I shoot 300grRNFPgc over 52gr of 3031 for almost 1800fps in my 1895G. It will group inside 3" @ 100yds w/ the 2x scout scope. I need to tweek the load a bit, I think I can get it down to 2". The rifle shoots jacketed bullets under 1 1/2" @ 100yds.

 

[Paul5388]

When you consider the recoil that 1800 fps load generates in the 7.5 pound gun I use, you'll get 23.64 ft lbs of recoil. 23.5 gr of Blue Dot will give me 1630 fps and the recoil is 2/3 of your load at 15.3 ft lbs.

The difference in powder weight to accomplish the same velocity does make a difference in recoil and sometimes it's an appreciable amount. I don't think the extra 170 fps you get is going to amount to much extra when it hits the critter and it's certainly easier on the shoulder.

BTW, here's another 100 yard group with a 400 gr Rem JSP using 12.0 gr of Green Dot.

 

[Timb1]

I am with Buckeyeshooter1 but I put Reloader 7 first.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

I've used 4198, 3031, 2495, Varget and Re7 with good success. I like 4198 and Varget with most heavier, especially jacketed, bullets particularly at top end velocities in a modern 1886 or Browning single shot.

However, for a 300gr cast bullet, 12.0-13.0gr of Green Dot is one of my favorites and most accurate, not to mention highly economical and pleasant shooting. DON'T use a filler, one is not necessary. It is very clean burning.

I can also verify Paul5388's results with a Rem 400gr JSP and 12.0gr Green Dot. I get that level of accuracy at 100 yards with my 12" T/C Contender Hunter barrel fitted with a 2x Burris when fired from a rest. Green Dot works very well in that short barrel.

 

[Paul5388]

I don't think I mentioned I'm using a Handi rifle with a 22" barrel. The whole rig cost less than $225.00 including the scope. I shoot off of some old 25# shot bags filled with real sand.

Since it's actually a shotgun frame I put a .45-70 barrel on (it isn't a recommended practice), I try to shoot very little more than trapdoor loads. I did shoot some 400 gr at 1800 fps, but that doesn't happen very often and I won't load any more like that.

I think that .45-70 is in this picture of my gun safe, where at least two aren't Handi rifles.

 

[Cary]

When you consider the recoil that 1800 fps load generates in the 7.5 pound gun I use, you'll get 23.64 ft lbs of recoil. 23.5 gr of Blue Dot will give me 1630 fps and the recoil is 2/3 of your load at 15.3 ft lbs.

The difference in powder weight to accomplish the same velocity does make a difference in recoil and sometimes it's an appreciable amount. I don't think the extra 170 fps you get is going to amount to much extra when it hits the critter and it's certainly easier on the shoulder.

BTW, here's another 100 yard group with a 400 gr Rem JSP using 12.0 gr of Green Dot.

It looks like you and that rifle/load shoot pretty darn good.
Cary

 

[TSQUARED]

I only shoot real whimpy loads fom my 45-70 Winchester Model 1886 using a 405 gr. cast bullet and Unique powder. It provides minimal recoil and gets to the 50 yard targets with enough oomph to punch holes. I do not remember the exact weight of Bullseye but I did use the old Lyman manual as a reference.

 

[Paul5388]

Even though I have been accused of "bouncing" these .45-70s into the target, that really isn't the case. They do have about 6" in mid-range trajectory, but that's still at least a 100 yard gun.

Here's one last target shot with 12.0 gr of Universal and a 400 gr Rem JSP. It does shoot 405 gr cast bullets just as good.

This group is 1.5" CTC, which isn't quite as good as the Green Dot load, but still very usable. The flake powders are easy to ignite and don't need fillers to keep the powder in place. There has been talk of chamber rings from the use of fillers, so I don't do fillers (I don't want to mess up a high dollar rig like this ).

BTW, I usually don't reset my sights when I'm playing with several loads. If it'll group as good as I like, then I'll rezero and try again.

 

[Cary]

Paul5388,
You have posted some good targets from your 45-70 using the reduced loads without any filler. I wanted ask you if you experienced any powder postion problems with your loads? To get your good targets you have posted do you have to handle the gun a certain way each time between shots? I'm curious as I may want to try some of the loads you have posted.
Cary

 

[Paul5388]

Cary,

I don't do anything in particular when I'm shooting these, i.e. I don't have a "ritual".

With the Handi being a break action, it's necessary to move the gun each time it's loaded. That usually means the shell is pointed down on insertion and then comes up level as the action is closed.

In Texas, we normally hunt out of a stand, so powder position is going to be more consistent than it would be in a stalking method.

As I've said, I use this site quite a bit for guidelines in load selection.

Lever Gun Performance Studies

The "GS" (group size) is a means for giving a reasonable prediction of accuracy and saves a lot of trial and error. It also gives you data for powders you probably already have.

Since I noticed you're in Idaho, it might be a good idea to look at the single based powders a little more closely. Even though there aren't a lot of them, they are still available in SR4756, H/IMR4227, Solo 1000, Solo 1250 and etc. If it's made by Alliant, it'll be a double base. Temperature sensitivity is the main reason to consider single based over double based and shows well in Hodgdon's use of "Extreme" for its single based powders.

 

[Cary]

Thanks for the information Paul. I have used information from the web site you posted in the past. There is some good information there. I have some Blue Dot and Universal Clays on hand and may try some loads in my 45-70 when the weather warms/dries up here.
Cary