.45 Auto Rim & the battle of the bulge.

[Vulcan Bob]

Hi all, you guys and gals who reload the 38 special may have noticed this, you know how the 38 brass gets a bit of a bulge in the web area of the case after quite a few reloading cycles, the place where the sizeing die dosent get and they get to chamber a bit snugly,sometimes requireing a bit of a push to chamber in the cylinder charge hole. Well I seem to have run into this with RP brass in the .45 Auto Rim after eight fireings. In my 625 JM and 22-4 I noticed these rounds fit very tightly in the chambers in both with some requireing a very healthy push to chamber and extraction after fireing was very hard. Today I took both guns out and fired some once fired AR ammo with the same load ( 255 LSWC and 4.5gr of 231 with Winchester LP primers) as the eight fired ones, chambering and ejection was normal. Time to take a few measurements.

All caseings are Remington, measurments made just ahead of the rim and are an average of five caseings after resizeing.

New case .466
2-F case .468
5-F case .467
9-F case .470

I think I found why chambering and ejection of those 8-F cartridges was hard. Now back in the past I put together a rather warm load useing the sierra 240 JHP bullet that was just on the edge of over pressure and I dropped that load like a rock and it may very well have been with those .470 caseings, wish I kept a load history data sheet with the caseings. Anyhoo anyone else run into this sort of thing and for those useing Starline brass any thing simular?

 

[Rodentman]

I've fired a slew of my reloaded .45 AR's and never had this issue. I am using a 1917 classic and 625JM. I prefer the AR's to the ACP's in my revolvers. I use minimum to midrange loads only.

 

[Warren Sear]

I wonder if your sizing die is out of spec and not sizing the fired cases down far enough.

 

[David Sinko]

I have experienced this with R-P brass, heavy loads and a roll crimp. I have noticed that there is less of a tendency for this to happen when I use a taper crimp. I don't load the Auto Rim very often, and heavy loads that are taper crimped in ACP brass have served me just fine.

Dave Sinko

 

[Maximumbob54]

I only have two brands of dies so far, Lee and RCBS. I prefer for my own reasons to use the Lee dies and have ended up buying more of them than RCBS. As far as the sizing dies go I again prefer to use the Lee dies over the RCBS, but there is one thing I have taken notice. The Lee die is flared or belled more to ease the case inside. I almost never crush a case when it engages the die. When I use my RCBS dies they get the occasional crushed brass. However, the RCBS dies all size down further than the Lee dies will. When adjusted to the same degree I can size with the RCBS, make a mark with a Sharpie, size with the Lee, and then you can see where it doesn't go down as far. I have told myself if it ever gets to be an issue that it wouldn't be such a big ordeal to batch size a bunch of brass with the Lee dies and then use the RCBS dies in my Lee Classic Turret. I don't load hot and heavy so this hasn't become an issue for me yet, but I keep that double sizing option as a backup plan.

 

[Shooter6br]

Lee sizer die

I shoot cast . I run my loaded rounds thur Lee sizer die. Then put round thur Dillion gage. I have no jams in my 1911,

 

[nightshade2x]

Try the Lee FCD, it busted all my .38 Spl. bulges.

Have fun and be safe.

Nightshade2x

 

[OKFC05]

Hi all, you guys and gals who reload the 38 special may have noticed this, you know how the 38 brass gets a bit of a bulge in the web area of the case after quite a few reloading cycles, the place where the sizeing die dosent get and they get to chamber a bit snugly,sometimes requireing a bit of a push to chamber in the cylinder charge hole.

This is not normal. You have something seriously wrong with your reloading.

I load .38 +P 158gr by the bushel for practice and competition, and use the cases until they split. After over a dozen loadings, they all still drop freely into the chambers. I'm using Dillon dies on a Dillon loader.

 

[PhilOhio]

It most certainly is not normal. You have gone beyond safe limits and have begun to pressure-swage the solid web area of cases against the recoil plate. To do that, your loads were more than "rather warm", and probably more than "just on the edge of over pressure". They were well over maximum safe pressure. Cartridge brass does not extrude some other way, with normal, safe ammo.

My advice would be to back off, way off, and stay with recommended published loads and practices. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't blow a gun and shed some fingers.

Chalk it up to experience. Been there, done that. Some 20 years ago, I ran into similar brass extrusion problems in trying to develop loads for a German MP-43, when no published data was available. Interpolating data from another nearly identical type of round proved to have been a wrong, though seemingly reasonable, idea.

Nothing is gained by trying to cram a 500 H.P. engine into a Yugo.

When a case web begins to expand, you are as close as it is possible to get, before blowing up the revolver. With a heavily built military rifle, the case may burst first, and vent pressure...often through holes drilled in the receiver and bolt head for that purpose. With a revolver, the pressure is more likely to be released by an exploding cylinder. Ever see photos of what's left of a guy's hand after this happens? Sometimes it happens, but usually it doesn't. It's a roll of the dice, and a matter of how high the pressure was.

But please, ease up a bit. We don't want you to have to post here, using a stick in your teeth to punch computer keys. Reloading is a never ending learning experience, and from time to time we are all tempted to go a little bit further than we probably should.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Hi all, thanks for the responce's. First off I use RCBS dies for the 45 ACP/Auto Rim and for the 38 special both are carbide and I do full length resizeing, however both of these sets of dies are rather old and have been used heavily over the years. I dont usually run hot loads in either cartridge, thats why they make the 357 and 44 mag! The one hot load I tried with the Auto Rim was a published load and was done only once. Perhaps it's time to invest in some new die's and to quit useing Remington caseings. My normal AR load is a cast 255gr LSWC with 4.5gr of 231 with a WW LP primer, this a rather sedate load that I really dont see causeing any case web expansion problems. As for the 38 special loads my usuall load is a 158gr LSWC with 3.5gr of Bulleye with a standard SP primer and my other load is a 158gr LSWC with 4.5gr of unique with a standard SP primer and the over the top 148gr LBBWC with 2.8 of Bullseye once again none of these load's is particuarly warm. So far after thirtynine years of rolling my own with a lot of different calibers I have not yet worn any gun parts home. Thats why I found this AR problem so perplexing. To be sure I am going to get ahold of some Starline AR brass and run a few tests.

I am well aware of case expansion as a sign of high pressure, Ken Waters in his book Pet Loads dose a good job explaining this.

 

[Drail]

The problem is caused by Remington's crummy brass and is not uncommon. Use Federal or Winchester or Starline. Give all your Remington brass to somebody you don't like.

 

[BUFF]

Carbide dies' primary significance to handloaders is the ability to not use sizing lube for straight wall cases, but it is also used by commercial loaders for bottleneck cases with lube. They use it for it's wear-resistant qualities. I have never seen an RCBS carbide sizing die "worn out" from use.

It's most likely a bad batch of brass.

That said, I am loading some R-P Auto Rim brass I bought unprimed in the late '70's (red boxes) that has been reloaded with full-power loads (.45 ACP levels) maybe 10 times. It is still usable and I haven't lost a case to splitting yet, either mouths or bodies. Given my usual results with R-P brass, I am amazed. I only buy R-P brass when no one else makes the caliber I need, like Auto Rim, .22 Jet and .350 Rem Mag.

 

[PhilOhio]

Vulcan Bob, I agree that it doesn't sound like the loads you mentioned should be generating high pressure, unless something else is going on.

As for Drail's comments about "bad" Remington brass being to blame, I'm not sure how that could be. The brass may be somehow second rate, but I'm not sure how that could cause web area expansion, even if it were annealed dead soft. But maybe a bad alloy...

As for bad brass, I avoid S&B ammo at all costs. I've run into too many cases that are so soft you can hardly get their factory ammo to feed in a semi auto of any kind without it bending or denting or jamming. And trying to reload it is just, well, .....

 

[tennexplorer]

Have you had this brass a long time? Or is it possible that it sat on the dealer's shelf for a while? Balloon head Remington Auto-Rim brass is still out there. I've got a bunch of it. It will do some funny things at very moderate pressure.

 

[Murphy2000]

The bulge has been a nagging issue with a lot of handloaders based on how finished rounds look alone.

Carbide dies have been a lifesaver to those who shoot large quantities of any handgun round. However, that bulge is going to be there due to the die opening being made easier to get the case started into.

I've never had a problem with bulged cases not wanting to feed into any of my handguns, revolvers or auto's. But I decided long ago just to be on the safe side if I were making up the highest quality round I could? I bought standard steel dies that require lubing. A pain in the butt after all those 1000's upon 1000's of reloads. But they size the case down about as far as you're going to get without going to a specialized die.

Murphy2000

 

[fredj338]

If your dies are set correctly, they should sizee far enough down to eliminate normal case expansion. If you are shooting hot loads that ove expand the web area, maybe not. The sizing die should be set to touch the shell holder w/ a piece of paper as a shim. This will eliminate any chance of cracking the TC ring. Int he Lee die, the ring is quite a bit higher, have the die touch the shell holder when it is at max hight.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Hey all, the cases are not balloon head's, I took a peek, bulk brass by the baggie. Yeah I also use the piece of paper to set the resizeing die's. PhilOhio's comment about something else going on got me to thinking. I have a 625-4 Model of 1889 that I bought sight unseen because I really wanted that five inch barrel, whoever had it before must have been a plate or pin shooter because that poor thing was hammered. He or she really polished out the cylinder charge holes and I notice a lot more blow by the caseings clean back to the recoil shield with ACP and AR loads. I wonder if the cylinder charge holes have been reamed/polished a bit too much resulteing in a oversize condition that may have affected brass expansion, most all of my AR brass (400 RP's) has been through that gun. This I will have to check out although I dont know how well my common dial caliper's will work at this task. Ive been thinking of sending it back to S&W for an overhaul anyway and may have them check this out too. Thanks again all!

 

[Armyphotog]

I'm not a reloader. I buy my auto-rims from Georgia Arms. Never have had a problem except they shoot real nasty, almost like black powder.

 

[PhilOhio]

Vulcan Bob,

There is one remote possibility, regarding oversize chambers. There are two main types of .45 ACP chambering reamers in circulation, as we Thompson people have found out. Most all handguns and revolvers using this round (same as .45 AR) are chambered with reamers made to the commercial civilian spec. But most military submachineguns use a different reamer, giving a larger diameter chamber, for greater reliability under dirty field conditions.

Lots of these surplus reamers are floating around. If an owner had a scarred or pitted revolver cylinder, somebody could have cleaned it up and made it look like new, just by reaming with the SMG reamer. The dead give away would be that cases fired with only moderate loads would still have very much enlarged bodies, but usually not the web. And they would not stand many reloading cycles, because of the extreme work hardening necessary to get rid of the bulges. Splits would come early, and all the way down.

I guess you could make some chamber castings, measure them, and see what you've got. The difference in dimensions is great.